"Bee Editorial: HIV plan backfires
Coded reporting system is unworkable"
The biggest Gay jokes in the 80's were played on themselves as ACT UP and others fought against contact reporting and for bath houses. I was called a Gay basher because I publicly advocated standard public health reporting for HIV. "Friends" of Gays in essence told them to go play in the traffic. Randy White was sent back to a public school where he picked up the opportunistically disease that killed him. Had he stayed away from crowds he would have been alive when medicines that would have kept him alive were available. The parents and public officials who put Randy back in school should have been charged with felony child abuse.

WOW. You shouldn't have shown this to me, now I am really pissed off!!!!

Using the logic that Karel of The Advocte likes to use,a better case can be made for God's Revenge by merely counting the number of deaths in the gay world associated with AIDES. These folks will do and say anything to justify their unnatural behavior.They will try any explaination to "normalize" their life style so they can seem important and meaningful.They want the world to think they are normal,but they are lonely,depressed and out of touch with nature

Before this gets out of hand, I want to make it perfectly clear that this isn't about whether homosexuality is right or wrong. Homosexuality is natural, and common throughout animal species. Even penguins. Whether or not you think it is moral, it is normal that a certain percentage of almost every species on this planet is gay. That is simple fact.

AIDS has killed far more heterosexuals than it ever will homosexuals. So let's no go there, okay?

This is a story of a bitter, spiteful man lashing out in completely inappropriate ways. Karel has become the mirror image of Fred "God Hates Fags" Phelps. He has become what he hates most.

That is your story.

Doubt very much the comment about the animal world. "Common" suggests far more than the less than 10% of any species that engages in such behavior. Plus, this "fact" is usually spewed by those who in some way support the gay agenda. One thing to remember is that in the animal world, any such behavior is probably a mistake on the part of the animal and certainly a aberration. In the human world, it is only "natural" in the sense that humans tend to want to indulge themselves without thought to consequences and it that way it is "natural". But it is never normal as it is contrary to our biological design.

As to Karel, a better comparison than Phelps would be the preachers who called 9/11 an example of God withholding His protection because of the decadence in our country.

Nicely done, quoting the article from The Advocate completely out of context. Did you happen to notice the part of the editorial which mentioned the far right radical Christians who claimed that 9/11 was God's way of punishing America for allowing gays to exist?

It's really easy to bash the article based on half of a paragraph ripped out of context. . . How many of your readers are actually going to take the time to read the whole article in The Advocate and see what Karel was REALLY saying?

Of course, you'd have no ammunition if you took the article in full context, rather than picking and choosing parts of it at which you can pretend to be outraged. It's a funny thing about religious nutjobs: They all seem to like to pick and choose parts of written things- like this article and, oh, The Bible- to support their angry, twisted, bigoted little view of the world.

Does anybody not get what the comments are about. It isn't about gays or scouts. Its about karel saying it is Gods revenge. Does Karel have a direct line that noone else has to God and knows Gods vision of the world in general and scouts in particular? Karel is a 21st. century prophet?

To equate any catstrophe or tragedy with the wrath of God is over the top. It is quite alright to agree with a philosophy but to claim the highest support in an opinion is immature and juvenile. It is in the grouping of 'my dad can beat up your dad'.

Perhaps Karel has lost his sense of empathy and humanity and should attend the funerals of these men so that he can see the loss of the families and communities to which they belonged.

Karel's just another dude playing to the crowd and making a buck off of a tragedy. Precisely the same as Falwell. No difference at all.

Do you guys know the meaning of the word 'satire'? Look it up, people.

Karel is obviously being satirical here. His point is that when Falwell blames 9/11 on, among other things, gays and gay rights, he is using faulty logic, and that by the same logic one can conclude that God punished the boy scouts for discriminating against gays. Note that he says hurricanes show that God hates Florida; how ridiculous does he have to get before you will recognize that he's not being serious?

Exactly, Matt. I'm sure some of these people were just as offended when Falwell blamed 9/11 on feminists and gays. (Heads up, everyone else, I'm being sarcastic! Obvisouly, you have trouble figuring stuff like that out.)

So you claim that Karel can hide behind the veil of "satire." I accept that premise as that is what he intended. But does satire give the write an excuse to say any hateful thing that comes across the writer's mind? Is satire an immediate and justifiable excuse for hate speech of any kind?

Can it justify a white supremacist writing (using satire, of course) about wanting another Holocaust to "police up" the remaining Jews? Would it make that speech less hateful, or more appropriate?

Apparently, you argue that it would.

I hardly think, Terrence and Mattt, you'd be giving Karel the same kind of rhetorical protection if we change the words from "Boy Scouts" to "African-Americans.”

Hatred is hatred, no matter how you try to disguise it. Karel obviously has plenty to go around.

You're forgetting that the Boy Scouts have made quite clear their hatred of gay people. They have banned gays from both serving as Scouts leaders as well as any boy scouts who happen to be gay.

So let's get it out there - the Boy Scouts are a bigoted organization. There is zero debate about that. They are as anti-gay as they come.

So sorry - the Boy Scouts can be legitimate targets of satire.

Why the hell would any gay person have one ounce of respect for this bigoted organization? I don't. I'm sorry that these people died, but I can still criticize their bigoted beliefs.

Oh yes, Lad, the Scouts /hate/ gay people. As an Eagle Scout, I can attest that we hold regular meetings in which we teach new Scouts to avoid the gay menace. We also give applicants polygraph tests. One of our favorite campfire activities is to burn effigies of gay people.

Does this mean Mensa hates dumb people?

So, the Boy Scouts are a hate group, Downtown Lad?

I shudder to think about your righteous, quivering indignation over the inherent racism of the Brownies.

Confederate Yankee, hatred is hatred; but the Advocate writer doesn't hate Boy Scouts. He was using the tone usually taken by Jerry Falwell and using it ironically (you may want to look that one up when you look up the word satirical).
A white supremacist who writes a piece about rounding up Jews wouldn't be writing it satirically; he would actually mean it. The Advocate writer doesn't really think Boy Scouts are being killed by God; his point is that it's just as ridiculous to say God kills gays as a punishment as it is to say God kills Boy Scouts as a punishment.
So your comparison is wrong.
You and your readers were taking the Advocate piece at face value. I was merely telling you that it was a satire. Satire doesn't give anyone the license to say whatever he or she wants, but if you comment on a satirical piece without knowing it's satirical, then your comments are worthless.
P.S: You write, "But does satire give the write an excuse to say any hateful thing that comes across the writer's mind?"
Clearly, you meant "satire give the RIGHT an excuse..." Anytime you want some free grammar advice, let me know ;)

Karel intended satire and sarcasm, which if you read in my original post, I clearly mentioned. I also clearly explain that sarcasm and satire are often just "a thin veneer for hate," which shows through in the venom of his writing.

You assume that Karel doesn't actually take some sort of sadistic pleasure in this series of events, and therefore say he is different for a white supremacist in intent. His tone in this piece seems to suggest otherwise. Karel seems to smugly enjoy the deaths of the Scout Leaders and the irony he is able to gin up out of the circumstances.

If you can explain how Karel’s snide, satirical hatred is qualitatively different from the small-minded bigotry of a Fred Phelps, please, go right ahead. Fred is a small-minded, small town stooge reviled by all; Karel is supposed to be a metropolitan man of the world, and seems to have quite a few supporters.

From where I stand, hatred from willful choice seems to be more of a sin that hatred from ignorance.

Obviously, many disagree.

So what are you saying Confederate Yankee? That the Boy Scouts actually LIKE gay people???

And they ban gay people exactly why again?

The Boy Scouts ban gay people. Every single one of them. There is not one person in the entire world that they would tolerate as a member. That's a fact. I'd love to hear you explain how they can do that WITHOUT having hatred for them.

Any organization that says you are ok to be a member one day, but then kicks you out when they find out you are gay, is a bigoted organization.

So what are you saying Confederate Yankee? That the Boy Scouts actually LIKE gay people???

I'm not saying that they like or dislike anyone. But you ascribe hatred to them simply because they have a set philosophy of who they choose to admit and who they chose to exclude based upon their traditions and beleifs. As a private organization, they have that right.

And they ban gay people exactly why again?

I don't pertend to know the details. Somehow, I doubt you do either.

Any organization that says you are ok to be a member one day, but then kicks you out when they find out you are gay, is a bigoted organization.

Of course, finding that you have been lying to them when moral integrity is a core component of their philosophy wouldn't have anything to do with their decision, would it? You'd get fired at work if you lied to get your job as well.

Just because you disagree with someone on moral grounds does not mean that you hate them. Well, perhaps it means that you hate them, but it does not mean they hate you back.

By the way - I was a Boy Scout. I didn't realize that they were discriminating against gays then either. Actually - they weren't - it's more of a recent policy.

Anyway - many kids in the Boy Scouts have no idea that they are part of a bigoted organization. And guess what? White kids in the segregated South probably had no idea that they were engaging in racism when they attended white-only swimming pools.

But just like segregation was racist, the Boy Scouts are engaging in bigotry as well.

Let's see Confederate Yankee. So by your logic, the KKK doesn't hate Jews and black people just because they ban them????

I'm sure you don't really believe that.

I never said the Boy Scouts don't have the right to ban whoever they want. You have a habit of putting words into people's mouths. Of course they have that right. But you have to be very stupid (or a bigot) to not realize that they are practicing bigotry against gay people.

Oh - and I love your argument that if you don't tell someone you are gay then you are "lying" to them.

Here's some advice Confederate Yankee. I think you should actually go out and talk to a real live gay person. Because it's quite obvious from your ignorant comments that you've never met one.

Most gay people don't realize they are gay until they are older. I'm sure there are many gay scouts who don't realize that they are indeed gay until they're already a Boy Scout. Same with Scout Leaders. It's not uncommon for gay people to come out of the closet until they are 30, 40, even 50.

But you slander all gay people by calling them "liars" because they didn't come to terms with their sexuality until later.

Shame on you.

By the way - you seem quite quick to defend the Scouts and say that they don't "hate" gays. But you have absolutely no problem in jumping to the accusation that Karel "hates" the Boy Scouts. You do realize that that makes you a complete hypocrite, don't you?

The difference between fred phelps and the advocate guy: you are merely inferring that he takes pleasure in boy scouts dying; fred phelps actually enjoys gays dying, and says so every time he gets a forum.
And I beg to differ that Phelps is "reviled by all" -- he clearly has a following.

Lad, don't be ignorant. You can't compare the KKK to the Boy Scouts. Or do you think that at den meetings they burn crosses and wear hoods? The difference is that the Boy Scouts aren't dedicated to hating a group of people, unlike the KKK. What a terrible comparison!!

Why is it that when a conservative speaks out against something, it's hate. When a liberal speaks out, it's their opinion and if a conservative disagrees, they're violating their right of free speech. I don't get it. Being anti-Boy Scout makes about as much sense as affirmative action. Call it what you may but it's still racism. In this case, hate is hate and you need to call it what it is and not do it. Period!

Aids has killed more heterosexuals than homosexuals?
Man where did you find this statistic?

Gays arent allowed in the boy scouts because they are a religious organization.
Do you have to be religious to be a Boy Scout?
No but you have to acknowledge God and show good moral character.
If they think that the act of homosexuality is immoral, then, hey they are a private organization and should be allowed to choose what they wanna do.

If Gays want to why not start a gay boys scouts?

Let's see Confederate Yankee. So by your logic, the KKK doesn't hate Jews and black people just because they ban them????

I'm sure you don't really believe that.

No more than I believe bar owners have a pathological hatred of people under 21. Logical argument isn’t your strongpoint, is it?

I never said the Boy Scouts don't have the right to ban whoever they want. You have a habit of putting words into people's mouths. Of course they have that right. But you have to be very stupid (or a bigot) to not realize that they are practicing bigotry against gay people.

DTL, you said yourself that a Boy Scout without realizing that they were not “gay friendly.” So which is it? Are you, by your own criteria, stupid, or bigoted? The fact of the matter is that this is part of who they have been and who they have always been since their inception as civil group.

Oh - and I love your argument that if you don't tell someone you are gay then you are "lying" to them.

If you join an organization under false pretenses and misrepresent who you are (lying on your resume about your qualifications, for example) to get around specific criteria, you are lying. Period.

Here's some advice Confederate Yankee. I think you should actually go out and talk to a real live gay person. Because it's quite obvious from your ignorant comments that you've never met one.

My best friend all through college was gay. Some of my wife’s friends are gay men, and I think they’re a hoot. You must have buns of steel from jumping to all those conclusions, sweetheart.

Most gay people don't realize they are gay until they are older. I'm sure there are many gay scouts who don't realize that they are indeed gay until they're already a Boy Scout. Same with Scout Leaders. It's not uncommon for gay people to come out of the closet until they are 30, 40, even 50.

Which is why the argument against gay scouts and scoutmasters is primarily a political matter instead of a practical one.

But you slander all gay people by calling them "liars" because they didn't come to terms with their sexuality until later.
Shame on you.

Again, they are only liars if they know they are gay and misrepresent themselves as straight in order to join the scouts. I make no age claims. That is all you.

By the way - you seem quite quick to defend the Scouts and say that they don't "hate" gays. But you have absolutely no problem in jumping to the accusation that Karel "hates" the Boy Scouts. You do realize that that makes you a complete hypocrite, don't you?

The opposite is in fact true, my logic-challenged one. You say that an entire group hates gays, which is a mathematical improbability. We know that Scouting does not want gay members or scout masters, but they have ascribed no feelings along to these value judgements. I have seen nothing from either the BSA or a representative group of scouts saying they hate gays, they simply hold that homosexuality is incompatible with their beliefs.

Karel, on the other hand, provides direct evidence of his hostility in his writing where he gleefully capitalizes on the deaths of several adults and one child to make a political point about their parent organization, while involking God, a diety he says he doesn’t believe in, to mock them.

Aids has killed more heterosexuals than homosexuals?
Man where did you find this statistic?

It isn't just a statistic, it is a continent called Africa. More straight people have contracted AIDS in Africa alone than all homosexuals worldwide. I imagine the NIH (National Institute for Health) would have the latest numbers if you are interested in the details.

So what are you saying Confederate Yankee? That the Boy Scouts actually LIKE gay people???

And they ban gay people exactly why again?

The Boy Scouts ban gay people. Every single one of them. There is not one person in the entire world that they would tolerate as a member. That's a fact. I'd love to hear you explain how they can do that WITHOUT having hatred for them.

Any organization that says you are ok to be a member one day, but then kicks you out when they find out you are gay, is a bigoted organization.

Posted by: Downtown Lad at August 2, 2005 01:01 PM

In response to Downtown Lad's unscientific, irrational, emotional and venom filled diatribe:

The Boy Scouts ban homosexuals for the same reason that it's a bad idea to have heterosexual men take the Girl Scouts camping in the woods unsupervised.

Considering the Catholic Church priest scandal had about 80% same sex ie homosexual child molestations of the total -- it's safe to say that's a good idea.

Um what does every homosexual pedophile want? To be around little boys and adolescent males.

Um what does every heterosexual pedophile want? To be around litte girls and adolescent females.

Considering there are numerous organizations of young girls that *gasp* men are not allowed to join as either leaders or members what part of like 90% of all sexual predators being male do you not understand?

Puh Leeze -- if Downtown Lad had heard of this thing called the Uniform Crime Reports (www.fbi.gov) or say the 18 billion studies available in the Archives of Sexual Behavior regarding the issue there would not even be a debate.

Liberalism requires a complete ditching of any facts, logic, science and reason.

And like another poster not "Why not form the gay Boy Scouts".

Downtown Lad would reply "No we need to unconstitutionally infringe on the right of assembly & association of the Boy Scouts rather than create our own competiting organization".

Quite the little fascist Downtown Lad is in not realizing that if the Boy Scouts do not have the freedom of association then neither does GLAAD, GLBT, GLSEN etc.

pedophiles, even those who molest boys, are overwhelmingly heterosexual.

pedophiles, even those who molest boys, are overwhelmingly heterosexual.

Cardinal Law, I thought I thought I banned you from this site.

;-)

Anyone who has had the misfortune of hearing Karel on his weekend talk show in San Francisco knows he is The Gay Michael Savage.

C Y - I respectfully disagree with you regarding the nature of homosexuality. It may not be a "choice" in the majority of instances, and in that sense, perhaps it could be referred to as "natural." But it is by no means "normal."

What gets my dander up is the way that the most fierce advocates of gay rights aren't satisfied with being open about who they are; their strategy is to use political correctness to force the question, "Are you what YOU think you are?" Never mind the re-definition of marriage and family -- some won't be happy until society rejects the concept of gender, imagining that differences between men and women are artificial and socially repressive (thus making their phasing out a priority).

I live in San Francisco, Yank. I know.

So gays are now pedophiles?

Confederate Yankee - I hope you're proud of your blog that has now turned into a neo-nazi diatribe against gay people.

I somehow don't think God approves of your bigotry.

And why don't you ask some of your gay "friends" to read these blog comments. I think you'll quickly find out that they want nothing to do with you.

...And Godwin's law comes into play.

My gay friends know my stance on this and similar issues, which is why they are friends instead of acquintances. They also know that I am anything but bigoted against gays, and that I've consistently attacked those who would use homosexuality as a weapon, and that includes people who would bludgeon others with their sexuality such as you, DTL.

My bigotry against stupid people, however knows no limits. Consider yourself banned.

Well, I've missed most of the comment action already, but I think a critical point is that just because a group excludes people doesn't make them bigots. Boy Scouts doesnt include women in its membership, but its not sexist for doing so. I also dont think the Scouts "kick out" gay children, their policy only pertains to openly gay Scoutmasters. So the BSA beleives open, practicing homosexuality is immoral and presents a bad example for young children. That doesnt mean that they are irrational or motivated by animus towards gays. It may not be the best policy, but its certainly not bigoted. As they say, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." One can hold an action to be wrong or innappropriate without abjectly hating that action's practitioners, and I can assure you that that is exactly what Scouting is all about.

So gays are now pedophiles?

Confederate Yankee - I hope you're proud of your blog that has now turned into a neo-nazi diatribe against gay people.

I somehow don't think God approves of your bigotry.

Posted by: Downtown Lad at August 2, 2005 05:10 PM

Uh if you actually read the previous post that I made it referred to both heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles and noted that 90%+ of all sexual predators are male not female.

Hence Brownies, Girl Scouts and like 1,000 other organizations catering to young women and young girls don't allow male members much less males to be the leaders.

The whole "Let's have openly homosexual Boy Scoutmasters take boys camping in the woods" is merely 1) a good precaution and 2) An acceptable moral judgement by an organization that homosexuality is not an approved behavior

Interesting to note however how Downtown Lad did not even address the issue that if the Government can infringe on the freedom of association of the Boy Scouts then it can infringe on the freedom of association of any organization including GLBT, GLAAD, GLSEN etc.

"Neo-Nazi" -- sorry I'm not a National Socialist -- I make Bush look like Senator Kerry

But thanks Downtown Lad for proving Michael Savage correct in one point "Liberalism is a mental disorder".

One could contend that liberalism is also the greatest producer of genuine homophobia in society as well.

Hopefully someday you might actually peruse the Uniform Crime Reports at the FBI or the Archives of Sexual Behavior rather than blindly follow whatever politician / leader on various issues.

Somehow I doubt it.

I am so glad all this dialogue has started. OF COURSE I'm being satirical. The problem is, the Fallwell's of the world AREN'T. And how many of you get your panties in a wad when gays are blamed for everything? None. How many of you go to funerals where Fred Phelps is and denounce him? NONE. Get off your high horses. As stated, I don't believe in GOD, therefore, do not believe there was any divine retribution of the boy scouts. And, I made it clear in the article that I grieve for the families as well. More than the religious right said to me for 20 years as my friends died. They said they deserved it for their lifestlyle. Well, turnabout is fair play. Problem is, those on the right don't understand fairness, or the ridiculousness of their argument, even when someone points out how ridiculous it is by turning it around on them.

Again, I'm glad you all are having a fun time with this. And by the way, I've gotten thousands of emails in agreeance with me.

It's SATIRE. But at the same time, the lady doeth protest too much me thinks. Did I hit too close to home?

karel

There are enough comments on this thread. I'll address Karel's reply here.