A "shithole country"? Two U.S. Marines called Iraq a "shithole country"?

I don't understand. I thought Iraq was supposed to be a democracy now, a free country whose people have hope for the first time in their lives and are free to live however they want to live.

How can a country like that be called a "shithole country"? And what if Iraqis were to read that U.S. Marines are calling their country a "shithole country"? Wouldn't that increase anti-American feeling in the Middle East? Are these Marines trying to sabotage the U.S. mission in Iraq?

I think I had maybe 7 years on the inactive reserve...but that was well over 20 years ago and I can't remember anymore ;->

Carter was prez around that time...I remember that much ;->

Kathy--
Stop being silly. You seem pretty enamoured with the place -- spend a week in Iraq (or Afghanistan), witness the poverty, the corruption, and the lack of sanitation, and tell me I'm wrong.

Uh oh, some Iraqis might read Confederate Yankee and be outraged? An outraged Iraqi -- that'd be new. I understand it's pretty hard to get those guys excited and violent, so I hope I didn't overstep my bounds.

And FYI: Yes, we are both (former) Marines. One of the many honors that comes with claiming the title "Marine" is the privledge of being on the edge of history, seeing these places first hand, and having a hand in changing things. The only edge you'll ever be on is your seat, hoping US troops get killed so some cretin with a bad comb-over can win the next election.

Any Marine who's been over there will tell you the country is a shithole, but at least they're doing something to change it.

Ha ha ha!

Kathy = pwnt

Just shut up.

Idiot.

Gosh, Paul. I don't understand why you are angry at me. I know from reading conservative blogs that conservatives are very concerned about the harm to our troops that can be done when Americans say things or express opinions that could increase anti-American feeling among Iraqis (and others in the Middle East). For example, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. These things make Muslims think we don't respect them, and then they get more anti-American. So I was just surprised that you guys would call Iraq a "shithole" when, number one, you know that could increase anti-American feeling, and number two, you know it's not true that Iraq is a shithole! Iraq was a shithole under Saddam! Now it's been liberated and democracy is on the march and things are getting better all the time. And Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them.

Make sense?

Kathy,

Your line of typical liberal speutum isn't even engaging or interesting.

It's just dull and inarticulate pure sarcasm that reveals a deeper truth about you which is that you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment.

Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness.

Then maybe you won't spout off again as you just did and reveal your complete and utter ignorance of the greater world at large.

I weep for your future students.

Kathy... It's really hard for me to tell whether you're joking or not, or whether your comments are being made tongue-in-cheek. If you're being serious, all I can say is that I envy your naivety, and wish I could spend a few weeks in your Candyland world, frolicking in butterscotch waterfalls.

Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled.

I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't. Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans.

Paul's mom told him his room was a "shithole"?

Bwahahaha.

Oh, too much.

When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation

Most people would agree Juarez and Tijuana are "shitholes".

The Arbor Hill neighborhood in Albany NY is a "shithole".

"...you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment."

Wow, Jinxy. Nail right on the head. Yet another reason why I enjoy talking to conservatives so much. You guys are so perceptive.

"Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness."

Well, I don't know about the getting out part, because I haven't left my lonely city apartment in 10 years. That said, though, I have to tell you I *love* that metaphor: I think I'll use it with my students this fall.

"Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled."

Okay, how would you characterize the political situation? I have read and heard so much here in the U.S. about how much better life is for Afghans now. The women have been liberated; they can wear Western clothes, go to school, hold jobs, walk by themselves, marry whoever they like. I've read that Afghanistan is a democracy now.

From what you've said above, it doesn't sound like this is true.

"I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't."

Well, from everything I read on the conservative blogs (and they are the ones who generally support the U.S. being in Afghanistan and Iraq, so that's why I specify them), the vast majority of Iraqis are happy that Americans are in Iraq, and they don't want us to leave. I mean eventually, yes, but the vast majority want us to stay as long as the U.S. government thinks it's necessary to stay. They're not in any burning rush for Americans to leave, iow.

So when you say that some Iraqis like Americans and some don't, that doesn't sound like "the vast majority like Americans." Which is it?

"Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans."

To your first question, no, definitely not. But I question my own sense that I would not feel safe in Iraq as an American, because I read so much about how the violence there is greatly exaggerated, and that Iraqis can move around freely without fear, go where they want, do what they want. I read that Iraq is a free country now, that it's a democracy, that Iraqis are finally free. That doesn't sound like a dangerous place. It sounds like a good place to be. Plus, if the vast majority of Iraqis are happy Americans are there, doesn't that mean I *SHOULD* feel safe there?

And to your second question, I have a return question: Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?

The single biggest factor in any country are the actual people living there, and by that standard, Iraq is a shithole.

About a year ago, I was reading comparisons of post war Germany or Japan, and juxtaposing them with postwar Iraq. The conclusions the writer made was that the important variable that made Iraq construction weak, and Germany/Japan construction strong, was the effort of the US. Not the actual people living there.

Comparing the 2 most industrious and productive peoples in recent history with Iraqis, and then pretending to be confused about the difference is disingenuous.

I know that there are those of you out there that are screaming "Racist!" out there. I didn't say that the cause of the difference was genetic, and I don't even feel that way. What I'm saying is that there are cultural differences between Iraqis, and Japanese, and one of those differences is productivity.

Back to the topic of the draft. The draft is a very bad thing. Please don't misuse the word, or it loses all of its bite. Heinlein had the coolest quote about it.
"I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!" -RAH 1961

Are you citing right-wing blogs in the hopes of finding some sort of solidarity with me? Or are you going to try and "trick" me into agreeing with me so you can launch some sneaky counter-attack, punctuated with a triumphant "AHHA!!"? It's not going to work, because I'm not as conservative as you think, and I'm not the type to agree with someone just because they're "conservative" or whatever. Hell, I think this blog is great, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says. Furthermore, if the left can skew numbers to mean what they want them to mean, so can the right. I'm not going to rally in the streets based on what some "pundit" is bleating about. I won't base my opinions off of political blogs* -- most are far leaning and have an agenda. I'd much rather base my opinions off of what I've seen and people of integrity and credibility who have been over there. Your buddy Eugene Debs might agree -- being a citizen of the world gives one an opportunity to meet such people.

The political situation in Afghanistan is better, and I have no idea how you would arrive at the assumption, based on what I wrote, that women can't go to school or that Afghanistan is not a democracy. Just because you make a country a democracy doesn't mean that public sanitation and equality rights will magically those of the USA in 2006. Expecting as much is unreasonable, naive, and ethnocentric. I'm not going to get into it any deeper than that because that's not the topic at hand, and at risk of sounding condescending, the socio-political situation there is too complicated to explain in simple terms that you can relate to or understand. I'd hate to give you information to misuse posted by a "Marine on a Conservative Blog".

* - ...this isn't exactly true -- I have formed the opinion (from blogs) that most people have no idea what they're talking about and have absolutely no concept or idea of what anyone is like outside of the USA.

ps: jinxy, my mom also used to say that it "looked like a hurricane went through my room". clearly she is a racist.

Kathy, although I think that you are asking questions from a liberal viewpoint, (i.e. rejoice when Americans are killed) I'll do my best to answer one of your questions as though you are honestly asking it. Maybe someone else will read it too. Here's your question.

"Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?"

I don't know about the blogs, but I can tell you what I perceived in Iraq. Iraqis want us there, but they want us to absolutely rule them. They want us to take care of everything, and make Iraq into a little America, while they are safe to sit back and complain. The concept of civic duty or paying taxes would be completely lost on them. I equate it to the mind set that happens to lifetime prison inmates. You get 3 squares a day, a bed, a roof over your head, and you never have to lift a finger. Even if you are in a relatively safe prison, you're still in prison. I think you made the equivalent of freedom and safety, when I doubt that they're even correlated. I'd rather be shoved out the door, and have to find a meal and a place to sleep, than be a slave. So you're question is complicated. Do Iraqis like us? Well, yes, but only because they like power, and we are the most powerful faction right now. And a temporary faction. Can't blame 'em for being fickle. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably hedge my bets too.

You asked about what the correct or incorrect things are to do, when it comes to inspiring terrorists. This comes from direct observation with dealing with arabs. Most people that have been to the middle east will tell you the same thing.

Weakness. Draws. Aggression.

As for the danger level, yeah it's dangerous, but it's not exactly like we were unarmed. However if we're viewing a people or place from a distance it's easy and convenient to view it as homogeneous, when it’s actually really fragmented. Iraq is a country with 25 million people. That's a lot of folks of all different types, and a lot of areas with very different danger levels.

Chicagoland has only about 6 million people or so. Would you feel safe walking at night in Chicago? It would make a big difference if I was talking about Evanston or Gary.

The short version is that the North (kurds) is pretty productive, and the extreme south (shia), is clipping along like a normal country. It's just where there is a fault line of different sorts. They want to butcher each other, and we're throwing a monkey wrench in their plans. I think that splitting it up into 3 countries would be a great idea, but that's up to the Iraqis.

I hope that helps a little, and I didn't just muddy the waters more.

"You're" is actually "your" Dangit.

Recruiting goals, 2003-2006, for the army: 73,800; 77,000; 62,385; 60,150. The other services see similar reduction in goals. It's obviously good they're able to recruit, but one wonders just how meaningful this metric is.

Brando,

Re your comments about the industriousness and productivity of the Iraqi people compared to those in Germany and Japan, and that explaining why postwar reconstruction worked so much better in the case of the latter two countries:

It might also have helped that, in the case of Germany and Japan, (1) those two countries were crushed, completely and utterly defeated, with no insurgency or guerrilla resistance taking money and troops to put down; (2) the United States had planned the reconstruction of postwar Germany and Japan for years before it took place, (3) that millions of dollars were spent on the reconstruction, and (4) that there were considerably more than 140,000 U.S. troops in Europe and the Pacific theater in 1945.

You might have picked up that I disagree with your assessment of the Iraqi people as being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. I don't think you can use such words to describe people who built the kind of infrastructure Iraq had before 1991. Iraqi engineers are (or were; there aren't many left now, since they tended to be more affluent and mostly have left the country) second to none in the world. I don't think it's fair (to put it very, very mildly) to look at the condition of a people after the 1991 Gulf War (in which Iraqi infrastructure was destroyed) and after this latest U.S. invasion and war and occupation and insurgency and sectarian violence, which has now lasted longer than the entire U.S. involvement in WWII, and make the judgment, from your perspective as a member of the military that invaded Iraq, that Iraqis are inferior in terms of productivity, industriousness, and efficiency. I could say more, but I'll stop, since I've probably enraged you enough for ten replies. Sorry about that, but your comments enraged me.

Here is my reply to Paul's latest:

No, Paul, I am not citing right-wing blogs to trick you with a sneaky counterattack. I was genuinely flabbergasted to find you describing conditions in Iraq as being exactly the opposite of how conservative bloggers describe it (and since Bob linked to you and Brando seemingly because he approved of and agreed with your military point of view, I did assume you feel comfortable with the political leanings of this blog). Even more than this, though, I was astonished to find YOU describing conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq to ME in a manner that I have been attacked for using myself.

To untangle that sentence a bit: I have been attacked on conservative blogs for writing that conditions in Iraq are terrible (and in Afghanistan, but I haven't written on Afghanistan as much). The same things you said, Paul. I have called Iraq a hellhole (I believe that has approximately the same thing as "shithole") and been called un-American, a traitor, a left-wing moonbat, and other assorted appellations. Now here I find out that Iraq most certainly is a shithole -- and from a U.S. marine, no less.

You might understand why I was a bit confused.

Also, I did not assume that you thought Afghan women could not go to school, etc. I was telling you that YOUR description of Afghanistan as a shithole contradicted what I had heard from conservative bloggers about Afghan women being liberated from oppression, and being able to do all the things Western women can do.

Basically, *I* think that conservatives are very, very conflicted in the way they characterize Afghanistan and Iraq. When reacting to people who oppose the war and believe that conditions there are horrendous, they say that everything is much, much better and so much progress is being made and the people who live there are happy and free and strong and making great strides to protecting themselves. When talking to each other, or when not aware that you may be talking to -- gasp! a liberal -- there is a very different tenor to the talk: Iraq is a shithole, Iraqis are welfare queens, can't do anything for themselves, want us to stay and be Big Daddy, etc.

"...as a member of the military that invaded Iraq..."

This statement tells me exactly where she's coming from.

Now, clean up your room, Paully.

Shame on you. Using Liberal and Honest in the same sentence.

Kathy, I'm not attacking you, but you've been misinformed. Please don't be angry. I'm not your enemy. I sure hope you don't see US Marines as your enemy. I'm simply stating my first person experiences. I hope they hold more weight than Michael Moore rants.

I was in Mahmudiyah (15 miles south of Baghdad), so I'll only speak to what I know. Maybe the rest of the country was rock solid. There's a reason I don't like to use the world "re-construction". I don't think that Mahumdiyah ever had a working sewage treatment facility. They dumped buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. People literally lived in mud huts. To say that Iraq was not just a 1st world country, but on par with Japan, Germany, or the US is not only untrue, but laughably untrue. I saw no indication that pre 1991 Iraqi was a 1st world country, and certainly no indication that it's engineers were "second to none". We took over a power plant on the Euphrates river, which I think was build and run by Soviets because all the books in the library were in Russian. Don't believe me? I even have one. Not Iraqi technicians. Russian. I worked with Iraqis on a nearly daily basis for 7 months, and I can assure you that they are indeed unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. It’s really hard to exaggerate. I could put together a stronger fighting force with an American Jr. High football team. Please understand that this is a general theme. They do have their all-stars, just like any population. I feel a little bit bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys. I actually liked some of them, and wrote my own little post about it.

Again, I'm not attacking you. I'm saying that the picture that's been painted for you is untrue. I don’t see CY as a “conservative” blog, although I suppose it is. I get a kick out of him because he’s so completely anti-terrorism.

Anyway, don't worry about enraging me. I sort of dig it when liberals say really insane anti-military stuff. It makes me mad a little, but it gives me stuff to repeat. Tell me the real deal.

Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight?

I don't feel safe walking down the street in major American cities in broad daylight.

Brando,

The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.

I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.

Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?

Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.

Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.

I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.

Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."

Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?

I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.

Respectfully,

Kathy

I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.

First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.

Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.

So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.

Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.

Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.

The order in my post somehow got completely garbled. It's all there, but it's out of order. I'm going to fix it and repost.

Kathy

Brando,

The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.

I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.

I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.

First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.

Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.

So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.

Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.

Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.

Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?

Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.

Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.

I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.

Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."

Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?

I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.

Respectfully,

Kathy

Kathy--
Referring to someone as your "boy" is a term of endearment used among today's youth. Didn't you say you were a teacher? You should spend more time listening to them. Right now everyone who read how offended you got at brando's use of the term is laughing at you, probably like your students do when you no doubt sprew equally ridiculous garbage in class.

"Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise."

You mean like having a part in creating a good place for you and your family and future generations to live? How about showing the "occupying army" that they can handle things by themselves? Maybe you should re-read your paragraph for a verbatim answer as to why Iraqis should be motivated?

You really showed your ass on that last post, so I'm gonna quit this thread because I'm a bit flabbergasted right now. It hurts me that you are educating our future. Peace n chicken grease. (hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)

ps. riverbend is a nutjob

"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"

Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.

Regards,

Kathy

"You really showed your ass on that last post..."

And you showed your true colors; it was amazing to see the mask drop.

"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"

Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.

Regards,

Kathy

As I have seen southern Iraq first hand ( I flew with a Naval Squadron over southern Iraq doing multiple missions) I will say that the Marines assesment of Iraq is dead on it is a shithole, there is sewage all over, the rivers have dead animal carcauses in them, there is garbage all over the place.
Also while some Iraqis do want us there, there are many who dont I dont propose to know why but I have been shot at by all tpyes from young to very old so to say they all want us there is wrong to. I am neither far left or far right I am middle of the road I see points from both sides and as the Marines said it is easier when you have seen the outside world firsthand. This is just my two cents worth think of it what you will.

One last note each and everyone one of us who have served were told and know that while you may be enlisted from four to five years active service you are a part of the IRR for a period of a total of eight years. (That does include your active time) So if you served for five years they have the right and obligation if need be to recall you at anytime for the next three years. Its in black and white and all of us are told about it!

Kathy,
You are obviously well read and well informed. It's the accuracy of your info that I have to question.
"Who do you think built the roads, bridges..."
I happen to be an engineer. I have both studied and personally seen modern, middle-eastern construction and engineering. Nobody is doubting the ability of an Iraqi to get an education if they so desire, but Iraqi's did not build their modern country. Their American and Western European educated engineers did the planning, and the construction was done on the backs of "guest workers" from other Arabic and Persian countries that had the misfortune of not being parked on top of a sea of oil.
You say that you are just "... trying to put myself in the other person's position" but I think you only manage to succeed in highlighting your cultural "American-style" ignorance. How the holy hell could you ever imagine what their position is. Did somebody blog it? Are you reading this in the safety and comfort of your air conditioned McMansion? Please tell me that you are not so naive as to base your obviously passionate beliefs on something you read? If this is true, I know a few Japanese with some very informative bits of info on their Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere.
You harpooned Mr. Brando for his comments on his time spent at the sunny, fun-filled, Muhmadiyah crap cleaning plant. Since you feel that he can't see past his nose, or the year 1991, I challenge you to tell me who built that plant? Was it the undereducated, wellfare state populace of Iraqis that were used to their nuevo riche government handing them modern day conviences, or maybe a Russian government that was scared shitless by the thought of a muslim uprising because they were busy bombing the shit out of one of their neighbors?
Kathy, you are dealing with a group of people that have experienced a culture that is so foreign to our Western way of living as to be almost unimaginable. You are attempting to tell these people that their experiences aren't valid because of their preconceived notions about a foreign culture that you yourself have only read about. On top of this, you allowed yourself to get suckered into a name calling contest. Honestly now.

so what