This is ridiculous. He'd be wearing a gown over it anyway.

If it were up to me, he'd be allowed to wear the uniform, but I'm a teacher and I know that if you lay down a rule you need to stick with it or the can of worms has been opened. I deal with this kind of thing every single solitary day. (Not the Marine thing, obviously, but the "Why can't I..." thing.)

No, Doc,

Emerson said it best:

A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds.

The difference between the DRESS uniform of one of our country's armed forces, and whatever else this policy is intended to prevent is obvious to any thinking, educated person, which is what I would have thought High School principals are supposed to be.

This idiot principal is equating USMC dress blues with blue jeans. He seems to be lacking in either judgement, or the courage to exercise it.

Consistency, however hobgoblin-like it may be, is the only way to deal with kids.

I guarantee you that if this guy had been allowed to wear his blues to the graduation, there would have been at least one parent at the next school board meeting complaining that the principal had let one kid violate the dress code, but he hadn't let her daughter wear the blah blah blah.

Again, I would have let the kid wear the uniform, but I understand precisely where the principal is coming from.

This is not a kid. This is a United States Marine who signed his name on a paper stating he is prepared to die for YOU! The principle is wrong!

I'd flip'em off and tell'em to mail it to me.

"This idiot principal is equating USMC dress blues with blue jeans. He seems to be lacking in either judgement, or the courage to exercise it"

Ditto. Since many educators are educated but not smart, it would probably be easy for somebody with an agenda to convince him that a Marine dress uniform is equivalent to blue jeans and T-shirts. What a maroon. [sic]

csasarge:

There's no need to haul out the capitals and exclamation marks.

Yes, he's a Marine, but he's seventeen. I've never met a seventeen-year-old who wasn't a kid, and I've known one hell of a lot of seventeen-year-olds. You can be a Marine and a kid at the same time.

What if he'd joined the fire department? Can he come in his fireman's outfit? They're willing to die for me, too, and god bless 'em. What if he'd been accepted to a premed program in college? Can he wear his scrubs? Doctors save our lives; that's important, too.

I get the point that you guys are trying to make, but I'm telling you that you have do deal with kid-related issues differently than you deal with things in the rest of the world.

What line of work are you in, csasarge? It bears on the discussion at hand.

First. I don't think the powers that be would approve if this young man was to show up at his graduation from boot camp wearing parachute pants, nikes, and a grateful dead tee-shirt. He is expected to show up at the prescribed place, at the prescribed time, in the prescribed uniform. The same holds true for his high school graduation. Prescribed place, prescribed time, prescribed uniform.
Second. I don't think it's proper for any military uniform to be worn UNDER anything that is not a part of approved dress such as a raincoat or overcoat.
The young man should go through the ceremony by the rules and afterwards, shed the civies and do the post graduation stuff in his uniform. Once he's got his diploma they have no hold over him.

If the school is always consistent with their code I have to side with the code. I personally would immediately change the rules to allow military uniform of active and reserve/guard personnel to be worn.

Eh, I think his plan for a compromise is good. Change after the actual ceremony. Not because of the dress code, but because you really shouldn't be wearing anything over A's anyhow. See AR670-1 (For the Army anyway, don't know what the Marine reg is but I'm sure it says the same thing.)

Now, if the rules were such that you could wear dress uniform INSTEAD of a gown, that would be fine, IMO.

1SG(R, USA

Doc--
As a matter of fact, you can't be a Marine and a kid at the same time.

Furthermore, I don't see the reason for the dress code at graduation anyway. The entire point of graduation is that these students are now adults, who are capable of making their own way in the world. Having a dress code seems to be merely a way for the school to continue to exercise control over those whom they are ostensibly letting go.

I give up. You win. As soon as a kid puts on the uniform, he has the wisdom of Solomon and the experience of the ages. Every kid. In fact, when that kid put on the uniform, he suddenly became 45 years old. I should go to him for advice the next time I face a personal problem. I'm sure he'll have some sage words for me.

Starry-eyed patriotism can be a good thing, but when it gets in the way of rational discussion, it's just a pain in the ass. Why can't it be enough that a seventeen-year-old is doing a good thing by joining up--why does he have to be a superhero as well?

I agree with Mekan, if the school has always been consistant with their dress code, then I look at this a little different, however, I would also change the code immediately or at least compromise in this case. Besides, in our world today, its porbably got more to with being "Politically Correct."
Doc Washboard, no one is saying the 17 year old walked out of basic a 45 year old full of wisedom. But this young man is more than likely on his way to a war zone. I also have the utmost respect for Firemen and Police Officers, but I know you will not see a 17 year old in one of those uniforms trying to cross the stage to get his diploma. And last, yes he is 17 years old and is still a very young person, but when he came out of basic, he was no longer a kid. A kid, dosn't make it through something like that. Yes there are those individuals who do and go on to make fools out of themselves and everyone around them, but, look at our politicians.
As for your question, I have been in the military since 1984. I was a Law Enforcement official prior to that for the State of Texas. Now Im sure that you may call me biased or somthing and that is fine. I may be, however, I just think this principal is more worried about his image and that of his school than anything.

V/R
Sarge

csasarge:

I just wanted to know whether you worked in the schools. I've been a teacher for seventeen years, and I know from hard, ugly experience that if you bend the rules for one person, you immediately have kids and parents yammering at you about how you bent the rules for one kid and that's not fair and why aren't you bending the rules for the kid who wants to come in a pair of assless chaps? And then you have people going to the school board and blahdidy blahdidy blah.

I've been there. I know how it works. Like I said, if it were up to me, the kid would have worn the uniform, but, as a cog in the machinery of the education industry, I know that you have to stick by your word. Change the rules for next time, but stick with the rules you have this time.

Doc Washboard shames himself.

The issue isn't maturity, the issue is respect.

As for maturity itself, this young man ("kid" is as much an insult as referring to Doc as "boy" would be) is considered mature enough to make life or death decisions every day- including his own life. He is mature enough to accept full responsibility if he errs in those decisions. That sure sounds mature enough to make his own decisions about dress; at least it does for this civilian.

So we have the point: Doc Washboard doesn't want this Marine- this young man who will serve his country, who will risk dying for his country, to wear his uniform because it might mean work for the TEACHERS. They might have to say "No assless chaps" (because that is the direct equivalent of a Marine uniform in Doc Washboard's mind); they might even have to write a memo about it.

Wow. And HE complains about 'lack of maturity'.

Go find a nice bridge to hide under, buddy.

Dear DaveP:

Your message comes through loud and clear: "I know you have rules, but they don't apply to me because I want what I want, and I want it now, and if you don't let me have what I want NOW, then I'm going to roll on the floor and scream and cry." Do you need someone to change your poopy diaper, too, buddy? Does Wuzzawuzzums have a tummyache?

What are you, twelve? This is the same crap I get from seventh-graders every year. "I don't see why..." and "It's not fair that..."

Stop being a twit and realize that you live in a society where we follow rules laid down by other people even though we may not like them. We can change the rules if we don't like them, but we follow the rules that exist.

Doc Washboard has it right rules are made for a
reason.If a person or a group have a problem
with a rule change it. Till then follow
them to the letter...The young man is about to
be in situations where you follow rules or he
will find himself in a world of S**t...He is at
the start of becoming a "MARINE"but he is still
just a "BOOT". God willing he will come thru all
in one piece and very much alive...

The word "kid" is used as an insult for servicemen all the time. It's not going to stop anytime soon.

The word "kid" is used as an insult for servicemen all the time.

I'm sick to death of those on the Right telling me what I mean and how I feel. Peddle you projection elsewhere, buddy. If you're ever wondering, I'll tell you what lies behind my words. Until then, put a lid on it or write about something you actually know.

Just simmer down. I'm not telling you what your opinion is, because I don't do that sort of thing, that's beneath me.

I'm not on the right. I'm just me. Just like you're you.

I'm sure you know that "kid" is a diminutive term used to exclude someone from even being considered an adult. Kids aren't accountable for their actions. Adults are. When folks say "kid" or "kiddo" or "son", it's often used to insult or degrade them to a less then adult status, so they are not to be taken seriously. I've had people do that to me many times. And I have no doubt that it will be done again.

The argument where you go straight to a 45 year old with wisdom on account of donning a uniform is the False argument of Excluded Middle. Let's agree to not do that.

There's no need for ad-hominem attacks, or to break things down into a left/right concept. It's much better to openly talk about things on the merit of the individual topic.

As for the actual topic, I think that it depends on how rigorously this rule has been enforced in the past. If this school or principal has rigorously enforced this rule, then you have to wear what they say. If this rule instantly got firmed up because a Marine wanted to wear his blues, then that might be cause for concern. In the end, it's the Principal's call.

Sorry I'm late to defend Doc Washboard.

Not that I agree with the rule. I think the rule is incredibly tight-a**ed. But it's the rule and Doc is right.

I also agree with Tincan Sailor. This Marine is just entering into a world of big-time rules that may or may not make sense at the time but he'd best follow them.

Or, from another point of view that I haven't seen posted here, let the Marine engage in civil disobedience if he feels that strongly about wearing his blues. Then take whatever punishment the school feels obligated to dish out.

This is America, built by people who broke rules they thought were unjust and by breaking them, got them changed. Sometimes.

That's what freedom's all about and I say hoo-uh to that.

Sorry, brando. I've been taking that kind of thing on the chin recently, and I'd had my fill.

I say "kid" not because I want to make some political point, but because a seventeen-year-old who hasn't yet graduated from high school is, to my mind, a kid. I personally have three children that age or older, and to me they're kids.

When my wife gave birth to our eldest (and I defy anyone to tell me that motherhood is not a grindingly responsible proposition) she was seventeen and I was nineteen--we were kids.

As I trudge slowly through my forties, more and more people seem like kids. I can barely believe it when I see some wet-behind-the-ears 23-year-old enter the teaching profession. I know I felt like a grownup at 23, but perspective changes.

Far from using the word "kid" to make some pet political point, I can't even imagine what political point would be made with the word.

(As an aside: what happened to "those brave kids" we always heard about who saved us from fascism during WWII? I've read and heard that term a million times over the years in that kind of context, and it has always been more a term of endearment than anything else. I never heard about anyone complaining about the term being applied back then.)

Some poster up above said that the whole thing "IS ABOUT RESPECT!!!11!!!" I agree, but not for the reason the he would like. It's about respect for the rule of law, which is what we're supposed to be about here in the old USA, and which is an important concept that we try to instill in kids each day. For students, teaching respect for the rule of law takes the form of arguments about dress code, the right to eat in class, and so on, rather than the bigger issues they're going to have to face later.

Some people never get that, and they're the people who do things that make themselves happy but don't do much for those around them: they run red lights; they change lanes without using their signals; they go through the "9 items or less" lane with 20 things in the cart; they cut in line at the movie theater; they scream at coaches when their kids don't get playing time; they go to the school board to complain about their kid's B+ in history. In short, they ignore all the things that we do in our society to smooth out the rough edges where people come in conflict with each other.

I'm sick of these people.

This Marine will survive not being allowed to wear his dress blues under his graduation gown, and maybe he will have taken another step toward being the kind of adult that we want running things in our world.

Everyone on here has a good point. I don't really think anyone is disagreeing with Doc. I for one am not disagreeing with you sir. My concern, and it seems to be the concern of most of the folks posting on this issue is whether or not there has been consistancy on the part of the school and the principle. If there has been, so be it. I still think that the school should look at the issue and maybe revise their policy, but that is another time. Many of us are sick and tired of changes being made for the sake of "political correctness". I truely believe that PC is going to destroy this nation or at least play a large part in its destruction.
Now, for the sarcasim and names thrown Doc's direction, I don't appreciate that either. Be adults. This is not the most serious issues of the day, but I do feel it is one to be addressed. Just be civil about it.
Again Doc, its not the policy but the motive that concerns me. If it is a well established and consistant policy at that school, then the young man should abide by it. Just for my benefit, does anyone know if the young Marine has even complained or did some one else complain for him?

Given what you just wrote, you and I probably share the same views on a lot of stuff. It internet is an odd thing. It's really easy to escalate things, but really hard to de-escalate.

I’ve noticed a lot of the same behavior that you’re talking about, and I think the exact inverse in regards to age. I usually see it in the baby boomer or the weakest generation. From my point of view they have a lot of unhealthy sense of entitlement. I think the young crop is really strong.

Doc, I tend to agree with you.

One of my last tours was as an RDC. That's a boot camp Company Commander (Navy equivilant to a Drill Sargent). One of the things we tried to instill was to follow the rules laid out for everyone. The young Marine should follow the dress code, then change afterward.

As far as the kid comment goes, well, we always called them our kids, kiddies, etc... Though once they graduated they were young Sailors. We still thought of them as kids. Wasn't ment to be thought of as a diminutive term or anything bad. It just was the way we looked at it. I guess that was because we were old enough to be their fathers or mothers.

The principal is right whether we like it or not. A dress code is a dress code. Period. It took courage to stand up to the criticism he probably received (and is receiving from some posters) for sticking to the rules. A uniform is a uniform whether Marine clothing, blue jeans or miniskirts.

The mother is an idiot complainer about everthing and she is empowering her son to be an idiot complainer as well.

The mother is an idiot complainer

Now I'm surprised. I think I'm going to have a heart attack and keel over from the friggin' surprise. I haven't met any idjit complainer mothers before over the course of 17 years in the classroom.