Move to China, dump the unions, concentrate on designing and building better cars. Be successful.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, bankruptcy and subsequent restructuring may very well be the ONLY way to save the Big Three. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean that they'll go out of business. I think it's their only chance of surviving.

Look at the business models of the foreign auto manufactures who have plants here in America. We don't see them running to the government for handouts to survive. Furthermore, their employees seem to be well paid and quite content with their wage and benefit packages.

My brother, a 63 year old, very conservative attorney who usually votes Republican, said the other day that when the government bails out the financial and auto industries we are effectively socializing their debt but not socializing their profits. I think that he hit the nail on the head.

Dude

This is just what Chapter 11 is for. Bailing out the automakers won't "save" them, it will only throw good money after bad. Restructuring is what they need in order to regain market, not a taxpayer funded reward for incompetence.

There is a critical difference between the banks and the auto makers.

The auto makers made their own bed and deserve to lie in it.

The banks were forced by Clinton, the CRA, HUD, Fannie, Freddie, and other government entities to make affirmative action loans and of course other opportunists rode in on the coattails of the "underserved" minorities.

The bank's problems are directly tracable to Bill Clinton, Janey Reno, Andrew Cumo, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Jamie Gorelik and the Democrats in general.

For aa company, bankruptcy is not the end of the world. It gives them a chance to get their act together.
PG&E went bankrupt and we still had lights and heat.
The unions took them to the cleaners and have been doing it for years. No company can do well with the amount of money being poured into retirement and health care funds.

White it is true that much of the responsibility of the current financial mess in our country can be rightly blamed on Democrats, it is also true that the blame is equally shared by both major political parties in America. This is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Politicians and business people of all political stripes benefited from this "bubble" until it burst.

Furthermore, the "under served" minorities that people often mention as the major cause of the current mess are a only a drop in the bucket compared to the higher income people who also bought homes, condos and vacation homes that they couldn't afford. The banks loved it!

This ain't the first time that this has happened and likely won't be the last. It's a cycle that can be traced back to the Federal Reserve Act of December 23, 1923. This is a bi-partisan scam perpetuated against the American people by a few wealthy banking families in the US and Western Europe. The succession of "bailouts" that have occurred since the Fed was created is the payoff. The recipients of the bailouts are really the ones feeding at the public trough, exactly as planned.

Pitting Democrats and Republicans against each other is simply a diversion technique. Until the American people wake up and realize who the REAL culprit is in these ongoing government bailouts, and demand changing the fundamentals of the system, it will be business as usual regardless of which major party is in office.

"We bailed out banks that gave credit to illegal aliens (Thanks Citibank!) and mortgages to morons that couldn't pay the minimums on their credit cards, and now babies are coming out of the womb owing money because Congress doesn't have the spine to tell these banks the honest truth that they deserve to fail for bad decision-making fueled by greed."

R.F. Young is right. But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings.

"But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings."

Ooh! Oooh! I know! I know!

Because the taxpayers as a group are too dim to vote the scoundrels out of office and into jail, and in the final analysis -- in a republic -- the people get the type of government they deserve.

I voted against my incumbent Representative this year because he fell into the Dodd/Frank mold. He was even the same party as I am. Did you?

Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg.

"Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg."

The problem that I see with this assertion is that it would be to the auto companies' benefit to have a bankruptcy judge force the renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs.

That being the case, why would the auto companies management be asking for a bailout in order to keep in place the current UAW contract with its strangling provisions, work rules, healthcare costs, etc? Seems to me that from a management perspective that they would welcome an opportunity to be rid of burden of the current contracts.

There has to be more to it than that.

The politics of the bailout were deconstructed a bit for us here in Ga courtesy of Chambliss and Martin. At the end, Martin was running an ad that ties Chambliss to the "Wall Street Bailout" which is the $700b original bailout which of course he DID vote for and in the same ad lambastes him for not supporting Barry's "Stimulus Package" which is ANOTHER bailout. Left out of any of this is that Barry also voted for the bailout. Was that wrong? Such a notion is never even entertained as the Martin people seem confident it is so unknown as to be irrelevant. But the result, a 14% blowout without Barry generating Dem turnout tells the tale. These people who gave Barry his margin are basically apolitical. They know nothing of what Obama or McCain or Bush do or say. They know nothing of the offices in play and quite nearly nothing of the people involved. This ignorance is a luxury, perhaps the second luxury of national wealth after a longer life. It is a luxury they can no longer (or not much longer) afford and that is good for the country at large. Look at your most obnoxious Obamoid acquaintances. They are genuinely and sincerely shocked that Barack has yet to cure all evils with his gentle words. And that boob isn't even in office yet. It is Reality Therapy and in the end it is the only cure. Hurts like hell though.
As for the relative culpability of the parties, it is true that the Republicans failed to reign in the Democrats. It is untrue to say they did not attempt to do so. Any hint of oversight at Fannie and Freddie (which legislation and lesser acts were proposed by Bush and McCain at different times and by a few other big names) was denounced as a racist assault by Dodd/Frank and their media fellow travelers. I can blame Reps for spending excesses and responsibility may plausibly reside with them for some securities problems but the mortgage disaster is 100% the fault of Democrats (many of whom made VAST fortunes from same) and stereotypical Dem policies. As such there is no prospect for improvement here and serious room for yet greater depradations unless Barry actually is the Messiah. Hope for that.

Dude, probably because a bankruptcy judge would also slash the CEOs salaries and bonuses; if they get a bailout, they can still get their dinero.

Mind you, I am not in any way advocating government regulation of CEO pay... just providing a possible reason that the Big 3 CEOs are willing to beg for a handout rather than go through bankruptcy.

Are you suggesting that no Republicans made vast sums of money with the so called "troubled assets" in the mortgage industry? If so, that is absurd. I personally know several housing developers (Republicans) who did very well with the housing bubble over the past few years. None of their projects were Fannie nor Freddie. None of their clients were under served minorities. All of their buyers were upper and upper middle income people who simply bought more house or condo than they could afford. Furthermore, the banks and mortgage companies were happy to lend them the money. Everyone who could rode that train until it crashed, Pubs and Dems alike.

No surprise about the election results in Georgia yesterday. Georgia is like my state, Tennessee, in regards to national politics. As many Republican policy wonks have recently stated, their party is going to have to reinvent itself in order to regain the confidence of the national electorate. By pandering to the extreme right wing of their party the Republicans have marginalized themselves into a regional party. The recent election has changed the landscape and the formula for victory that Republicans have depended on since 1968.

My goodness, just look at NC and VA! The solid South ain't so solid anymore. NC in particular comes to mind. The Senate seat currently held by Elizabeth Dole will be occupied by a Democrat come January. Keep in mind that that seat is the one formerly held by the darling of extreme right wingers for decades, Rep. Senator Jesse Helms.

Though there may be some folks who think of President Elect Barack Obama as a Messiah, I personally don't know any Democrats who regard him in that light. In fact, the only people that I've heard refer to him as such have been disappointed Republicans. He is however, a very bright man. He didn't win the election by being a "boob". He's a very practical man.

President Obama will be intelligent enough to know that he must govern from the center, or a bit left of center, to achieve even SOME of his stated goals. In fact, some of his recent appointments prove my point.

As Senator McCain so truthfully said to a lady who called President Elect Obama a terrorist on the campaign trail....."No Mam, you don't have to be afraid of Senator Obama as President."

I would agree with you that many citizens of BOTH parties are ignorant when it comes to American Civics. The electorate has been dumbed down. I attribute much of that to the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and others of their ilk. Nevertheless, enough voters rejected the right wing propaganda machine and elected Obama with roughly 53% of the votes cast. To quote Sen. McCain again: The American people have spoken and they have spoken clearly.

To me, one of the most interesting statistics of this election is that 52% of the people who are in the income bracket whose taxes would be raised 3% by President Elect Obama's proposal during the campaign, voted for him. Having said that, I agree with the several pundits who now speculate that he isn't likely to push for that tax increase anytime soon.

As for the bailouts, I don't know how that will play out. I imagine that whatever happens would happen regardless of which party were in power. History shows us that there's no reason to believe otherwise.

Jeez! You don't understand that the Auto company mess is democrat driven too? It was the Dems that put all the restrictions and taxes and demands on the auto companys that formed the money crunch for them. Competing auto companies from overseas don't have our taxes, nor our medical insurance programs, nor contribute to our economy anywhere near our companies do. The companies that have smll plants here don't buy tooling and parts here, or even machinery. They import it all....and they don't pay taxes on the real estate and content like our companies do.
That's OK though....let the auto companies go ahead and move their headquarters overseas and shut their plants here and move all their operations overseas too......then you'll see the shit hit the fan. There WILL be a depression then. Auto related industry is at least 10% of the GNP....and you want to throw it away....I can't think of anything more idiotic, except Obama in the White House...and you idiots already did that. Well, screw ya! Do it and live with it. I'm doing my "John Galt" thing, as of now.

Chapter 11 baby! Read about it. It's somewhere between chapter 10 and chapter 13. Bottom line: Big 3 would dissolve their contracts with the unions and start fresh. But the dems CAN'T let THAT happen. Them's their buddies.
http://rightklik.blogspot.com/

"Chapter 11 baby! Read about it. It's somewhere between chapter 10 and chapter 13. Bottom line: Big 3 would dissolve their contracts with the unions and start fresh. But the dems CAN'T let THAT happen. Them's their buddies."

This problem is MUCH more complex than THAT. For one thing, the Big 3 won't have the authority to dissolve their contracts, even in Chapter 11. That's up to the bankruptcy judge.

I have a feeling that this bailout IS going to happen, in one form or another. As I've said before, it wouldn't matter which political party is in power.

Pitting Dems against Pubs is simply a diversion by BOTH parties. In fact, if history is any indication at all you'll see the two parties make compromises to make sure that the American Auto Manufacturers don't go bust. Of course, the ONLY way for this to be successful is for the UAW to be forced to make major concessions, too.

Well, Dude, if both parties really are in an eeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiwacy to do something nefarious, you'd best start looking for a cave somewhere in the woods where you can hide from the Black Helicopters, shouldn't you?

You know, CW? I'm not really sure if Dude is due that level of Snark. Granted he compared so many different fruits in his long screed above that I thought I was getting in line for a nice refreshing fruit salad, but he doesn't appear to me to be worried about those helicopters either.

How about it, Dude? Would you care to try to explain how this

I personally know several housing developers (Republicans) who did very well with the housing bubble over the past few years. None of their projects were Fannie nor Freddie.

For my two cents on any government bailout scenario for any 'business sector' - I am against it. I told my Rep and Sens to NOT vote for the "700B bailout of Wall Street" because I happen to believe in free market corrections. Chapter 11 is the only real answer to the US auto industry right now. They will come out of it leaner and potentially profitable.

I still can't get over the ridiculousness that the leftist illuminati is even ENTERTAINED the idea of following this through. Our country will not fail due to a few poorly run companies not having money

If you are going to trash an American industry that has lasted a century, you owe it to the rest of us to read this:
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

The import companies wisely located in states with foundering economies thereby wrangling hundreds of millions in the form of incentives and tax breaks. They also looked for depressed employment numbers (read wages) so the money offered was just a little above the median. The imports have their homeboys health covered by their national networks and ALL of the profit they make here gets sent home, much as the illegal workers do.
The gap in quality is now narrow enough to call it closed. In 2006 Toyota recalled more cars than it built. GM's Fairfax Assembly plant won the Bronze award from J.D. Power in productivity for 2008 against ALL the North American facilities D3 and carpetbaggers combined. They build the award winning Chevy Malibu and the award winning Saturn Aura in standard and hybrid configurations.

4 million people looking for work now. People are screaming for Government to do something. Now add job losses to the tune of 3 million more from the auto industry. Do you see the formula for insurrection?
This whole flap about the economy can be traced directly back to the Carter/Clinton years with the Community Reinvestment Act. Add to that Obama's ACORN and remember George W. Bush tried 12 TIMES to throttle back the lending industry without agreement from Chris Dodd or Barney Frank.
If these subprime buyers had been held at bay, the housing prices would have held not have had the wild runup to 2006 levels. Much of the economy's growth over 5 years was due to borrowed money being spent on consumer goods. I would take a flat economy any day over what we see now.
Thanks to the bundling of bad loans, speculators ran the markets thru the roof, much like commodities speculators did with crude oil this year.
The D3 is guilty of building vehicles that the public would buy. They just forgot to count on $4.00 oil.
The Chevy Volt is the bright spot. Estimated battery power range is 40 miles. Then a 1.0 turbocharged E-85 capable engine fires up and powers the vehicle thru the electrics and charges the battery with unused current.
Range: 400 miles
So there. Keep the jobs in America.