There are two reasons for the bill. The first is to fund ACORN and its ilk in their efforts to find imaginary Democratic voters. The second is to transfer large amounts to labor unions that will in turn contribute vast sums to the Democratic Party and its members. It is, in other words, public financing exclusively for Democrats.

Economist Peter Schiff sums up, accurately I think, how Obama and Pelosi have set us on the road to ruin as a nation--certainly as a superpower. The idiots are now in charge, and we're just along for the ride.

Obama likes to use the refrain that he "inherited" this economic crisis. His solution is to worsen it by doubling--perhaps tripling--the debt. The definition of insanity.

Please note: I've had to intentionally misspell the word "socielism" in this post because the spam filter would not let me post the word in its correct spelling.

Your fear of the United States becoming a socielist state is unfounded. We are and have been experiencing degrees of socielism in our society for decades. What we actually have is a blend of a free market capitalism system with some socielism thrown in for seasoning. This is nothing new in America. What we can expect to see in the future is a bit more seasoning.

First of all, how do YOU define socielism? That's a fair question since you and many others on this forum use the word often as if it's something to be feared and avoided at all costs. So, what IS socielism? What does it mean to you when you hear the word? Before we can discuss a thing in an intelligent manner we first need to define that thing.

Next, we should define capitalism and the free market. What do those terms mean to us? I say this because many so called "conservative" commentators seem to pit socielism against free market capitalism as if there were no middle ground at all.

In fact, both systems have many and diverse forms. Furthermore, both systems in their extreme and purest forms are not systems under which I would want to live, nor do I think that very many other Americans would like to live under either of those systems in their purest forms.

To me, this isn't a Republican versus Democrat issue. It's not about my team against your team. If you honestly examine the history of the shades of what we call socielism in America, both of the major political parties have supported the concept in one way or another.

Again, please define what you mean when you use the word socielism as it applies to America. This could be an interesting discussion.

Kind Regards,

Dude

Economist, from what I've read, are saying 2009 is going to be an economic wash with the possible starts of a recovery at the tail end. January markets have predicted the year in 7 of the last 10 years, and markets were down this year. This information is from my daily reading of the Wall Street Journal.

Jack Bogle, founder of Vanguard, was on Morningstar in a video interview. He is no lefty. A true capitalist and unwavering optimist. In his 51 years of investing he's never seen anything like we are currently experiencing. He then went on to say the current climate has only been bested by the Great Depression. I'll trust his word. He knows investing and he knows business.

The point is that things ARE in fact bad. Obama isn't making it up. Whether his stimulus package is going to help is a fair debate. The Republican alternative wasn't cheap either. It was a 400 billion dollar bill. There are no sunny options right now, but to claim that the severity of the situation isn't significant is an gross inaccuracy.

You are going to need a lot more than a January retail sales report to be convincing.

On top of the retail sales, the CEOs of the major banks yesterday on Capitol Hill showed puzzlement in regard to TARP II. Since none of them would be seeking additional funds from TARP II (unless the funds were cheap), they had no idea just what Treasury would be doing with the money.

On top of the retail sales, the CEOs of the major banks yesterday on Capitol Hill showed puzzlement in regard to TARP II. Since none of them would be seeking additional funds from TARP II (unless the funds were cheap), they had no idea just what Treasury would be doing with the money.

You mean, a few weeks into Barack Obama's presidency, he stopped the recession?????

Clearly, those of us on the right must do something to mess up the economy again. A third war maybe?

I vote for an invasion of Mexico. What say you?

Thank goodness we are finally starting to feel the effects of the Hoover Recovery.

((((New Retail Spending Figures Suggest Recession May Be Over)))))'

hahahahahahahahahahahah~!

-->Retail trade sales were up 1.1 percent (±0.7%) from December 2008, but were 11.0 percent (±0.7%) below last year. Gasoline stations sales were down 35.5 percent (±1.5%) from January 2008 and motor vehicle and parts dealers sales were down 22.2 percent (±2.3%) from last year.

____>

M3

HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE PRELIMINARY REPORT ON MANUFACTURERS' SHIPMENTS, INVENTORIES, AND ORDERS

December 2008 --------------- Released 10:00 A.M. EST February 5, 2009
(M3-2(08)-12)
Note: All figures in text are in seasonally adjusted current dollars
For Data - (301) 763-4673
For Questions - Chris Savage or Jessica Young
(301) 763-4832
Summary

New orders for manufactured goods in December, down five consecutive months, decreased $14.8 billion or 3.9 percent to $362.4 billion, the U.S. Census Bureau reported today. This was the longest streak of consecutive monthly decreases since the series was first published on a NAICS basis in 1992 and followed a 6.5 percent November decrease. http://www.economicindicators.gov/
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There is no bright side to the economy, all signs are that it is going to continue to tank. I see signs that major corporations are going to cut and run with the stimulus money.

We can hagle politically , but as i see it. They are all GovCorp and they are all Destroying the country of greed and self indulgence.

occasion2b

Confederate Yankee,

Thank you for this forum. It's a great place for thinking and non thinking people, both left leaning and right leaning, to gather and exchange ideas and insults. It's FUN and occasionally informative.

A gentleman named "Rick" and myself have had an interesting and civil political discourse in another thread here at your forum. Though our points of view are quite different, we don't insult each other. I especially enjoy that type of discussion.

It's also fun to read posts of, and sometimes debate issues with, some of the "intellectual giants" who visit your forum. I particularly enjoy reading the posts of one humanoid who frequently uses the term "drones" when referring to those of us whose politics are anything to the left of Attila the Hun.

Again, even though more often than not I disagree with your point of view, thank you sincerely for providing this forum.

Very Best Regards,

Dude