Don't be fighting this tide. I am going to get me a rifle from the government for my right to bear arms.

Right on! And here's the part that I don't understand: let's stipulate, for the sake of argument, that "health care" is a "right". By what power does the government have any business limiting any citizen's access to health care? Isn't calling it a right the same as saying that the buffet is open, and it's all-you-can-eat? If I have a right to health care, well, by gum, the next time I'm sick, I want the PET scan, the MRI, the laser surgery, and, oh, since I have myopia and I am going to be there anyway, I demand that my "right" to LASIK to correct my vision be honored. For free.

Or am I missing something about the concept of health care as a "right"?

For anyone who believes that healthcare is a right, consider this...

The right of free speech...You also have the right NOT to exercise your right of free speech if you'd like...

The right to assemble...You also have the right NOT to exercise your right to assemble if you'd like...

The right to bare arms...You also have the right NOT to exercise your right to bare arms if you'd like...

But he right to healthcare?...Doesn't pass the smell test...

You are FORCED BY LAW now to be part of the plan irrelevant of whether or not you wanted to exercise that ability...

Therefore, it is, unequivically, NOT a "right"...

cnredd
Political Wrinkles
http://politicalwrinkles.com

Health care, like Soylent Green, is people. These ones still have names, though.

"Of course health care is a right - we just need to pay for it more efficiently so as to save some of our money."

Assertion is not proof, and there certainly is nothing to increase efficiency within the abomination of "reform" Congress just vomited on us.

I've never gotten an answer from any leftist why, if providing health insurance to the uninsured was so important to them, they never formed a charity to do it. Why they demand that other people be forced to pay for something they consider so important.

Although the taxes will start immediately (so much for the promise about not raising taxes "one dime") the alleged "care" will not start until 2014. The country will be bankrupt before then.

My flag flies upside down as we are all in distress and stand to lose our lives, property and liberty to this tyrannical government.

Owning a gun is a right too, so does that mean I can get someone to pay for the guns I want?

These people(I dare not call them Americans) have along with their media arm, have attempted to hijack the notion health care is a right. While it sounds nice, it's not right. They of course have also attempted to shape this in moral terms too. As if people who support baby killing have any morals to start with.

No rational argument was listened to. No Constitutional argument was heeded. The left WANTED what it WANTED. Never have I seen such religious fervor from people that took the Dems pronouncements about this bill like a Voice From GOD.

The thing about irrational love, is that when it is shown to be false, irrational hatred is the natural result.

It's weird the way you'll cheerfully spend billions to blow up people in the Middle East but will whine like a little girl about paying for you fellow American's health.

Why is that?

The party of slavery have voted in slavery yet again using different words to describe it.

Salvage good, others bad

I've never gotten an answer from any leftist why, if providing health insurance to the uninsured was so important to them, they never formed a charity to do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haight_Ashbury_Free_Clinics

And again, the proof is in the pudding as to whether we consider health care a right in this country. On the one hand, we the have the Hippocratic Oath, emergency room service mandated by means of the rules governing hospital incorporation, and next to zero public outcry for shutting down ERs.

On the other hand, we have you braying that 'health care is not a right!'

You want to fix health care *and* the national deficit & debt? We can have both. But we're gonna have to gut the Pentagon first. It's the biggest sinkhole for good money there is. One decade, a trillion dollars, and goatherders in caves have got us pinned down in the mountains of Asia, with no end in sight. How's that working out?

BTW, David Frum wrote a very good commentary yesterday, but Republicans are too scared to comment. I mean, I get that conservatives scare easily and are primarily motivated by irrational fears, but fear of David Frum...? C'mon, if that's the neocon spine, then it's no wonder the twin towers of our sacred War on Drugs and Terrorism are failing as woefully as the GOP's misguided Epic Fail War Against Health Care Reform.

gee........i don't remember being asked if i wanted a one trillion dollar war jammed down my throat wihout paying for it, or income tax cuts for the wealthy, or bailouts for the banks - I must be missing something with your blog about health care, seems selective in its approach

Who pays for free ER care for the uninsured?

We have a war now, should this become law. The little liberal weenies who have been crying about illegal wars over seas are about to have a real reason to cry. This shall not stand in my land.
Never.

Semper fi, Odins. Last nights' vote was a Declaration of War. Keyboard Kommandos call to action: "Operation This Shall Not Stand In My Land. Never." Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition. (Or is that popcorn?)

The fact is, I ain't gonna pay for it. No way.

Oh, come now, Joe! Don't be so coy...

Let's have a list of the people you intend to shoot with your rifle! Perhaps to be posted on Twitter for all the world to see, that they may marvel at your martial virtue!

I don't see why you're so upset. This bill is so unpopular, anyone who runs on repealing ObamaCare is a guaranteed winner. badabing badaboom, instant GOP majority! as long as the republicans are smart enough to campaign on repealing the bill.

may i add: please please PLEASE campaign on repealing ObamaCare. this will not stand in my land!

cargil,

You cut the taxes on the wealthy because no one else payes taxes. Can you understand that concept? The small amount of money that you might pay to taxes is nothing. When you are writing 6 figures to the IRS, then you can have an opinion.

As to the one trillion debt, you are mistaken, the debt is about 12 trillion under Obama. Now it looks like your building up to a Bush moment, stop right now as most conservatives view Bush as a liberal. The only talent the man had was that he was not Gore or Kerry. Look what has happened as a consequence of voting for scum.

"I will be forced to pay for the coverage of others, whether I want it or not"

i was forced to pay for a lot of things that i didn't want to pay for, like killing people in other countries, most of which were much less morally defensible than buying health insurance for poor children

quit yer whining and grow up!

OH NO!!! My precious, precious freedom dashed on the jagged rocks of "26 year olds get to stay on their parents' insurance" and "small businesses will be able to write-off as much as 50% of their health care costs."

We must battle against these things. How dare elected officials in a representative democracy vote to MANDATE that insurance companies can't deny coverage to children because they have pre-existing conditions!! ANGER!!!

"As Wikipedia notes, having someone "laboring against that person's will to benefit another, under some form of coercion" is the very definition of involuntary servitude... slavery."

So you're against ANY form of taxation that results in ANY redistribution of wealth? If I pay taxes that in any way benefit another person, I am being coerced?

This is why I don't take many conservative bloggers seriously. When you're equally willing to declare war on the federal government over corporate subsidies, all tariffs, all license fees, etc., I'll take you seriously.

And I get that your quote includes "against his will," but these bills were passed by majorities in both houses of Congress. If a tax is passed by a democratically elected majority, you consent. Otherwise, as many have noted already, I could easily object to my taxes being spent for things I don't approve of, and claim I didn't consent to be taxed for purposes I find obnoxious.

As someone much smarter than I am wrote, "Enlightenment is man's freeing himself from his own self-imposed chains." You complain that this bill deprives you of your freedom, but you cannot be free at all while you are still bound by the chains of your own self-imposed ignorance.

"when you write six figures to the IRS, then you can have an opinion"

Wow, so only millionaires show be allowed to have a voice in the country. That sounds like a much better system than American democracy.

WOLVERINES!!!!!!

As the ancient philosophers DEVO once wrote, "When something's going wrong, you must whip it."

Semper Fi, Devo.

Mysticdog,
Yea, you got it. Our founders had a system in which you only voted if you had property. This whole process that we see show why. Are you aware that the Greeks, who developed democracy, gave it up as they felt it did not work? We live in a republic. We need to return to that concept. Currently 46% of the US is on the federal payrole, you feel that it is fair that they dictate to the 30% of us paying the bill as to how much we can take home and keep? I don't think so and I am getting mad enough to express my discontent.

This whole process that we see show why. Are you aware that the Greeks, who developed democracy, gave it up as they felt it did not work? We live in a republic. We need to return to that concept. Currently 46% of the US is on the federal payrole, you feel that it is fair that they dictate to the 30% of us paying the bill as to how much we can take home and keep?

WINNER OF FIRST PRIZE FOR 'MOST IGNORANT POST IN THIS THREAD'!

congratulations! please accept your free cheeze!

tacitus, the truth,
I see the liberals are out. Name calling. Personal attacks. Try giving some facts. And make sure you don't distort like usual.

The health care debacle in other countries exists only on the economic merits of price controls and limits to specific care. I've been on Medicare so I've been on the receiving end. I've never seen a politician specify how the U.S. will do anything differently to avoid inevitable rationing. If we intend to go down this path, the wheel will have to be reinvented.

Yeah, David you tell them. Facts they cannot deny like 46% of USA is on the payrole and that those of use hear in the Heartland are tired of spuuporting them all we might Go Galt even.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, government accounts for about 8% of jobs in the United States. Here's the breakdown using numbers easily accessible on the BLS website (all numbers from 2006 or 2007):

1,774,000 Federal government civilian employees, excluding Post Office
615,000 Post Office
1,172,913 Military enlisted
230,577 Military Officers
2,424,000 State government (excluding education and hospitals)
5,594,000 Local government (excluding education and hospitals)

That's a total of 11,810,490 government jobs.

The total number of jobs in the U.S. in 2006 was 150,600,000, so government employment makes up 7.84% of all jobs.

In 2007, the U.S. population (according to the Census Bureau) was 301,621,157, so about 4% of Americans are employed by the government.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_americans_are_government_employed

"athenian democracy" is the name for the form of democracy practised in the small city states of greece in about the 4th century b.c., where all adult male free property holders would get together for votes on important issues. we can't gather all 225 million american adults for votes on every issue, so we have what is called "representative democracy", where we vote directly only for our representatives, who then vote for us. on the other hand, we have extended the vote to all citizens, and have no slaves, so our franchise is more inclusive than athenian democracy. so, you see, we do have democracy, which is a form of government where the people ('demos') are ultimately in charge ('-ocracy'). the united states is a democratic republic.

the democratic city states were ultimately taken over by dictators. it is not true that they voluntarily gave up democracy. you will note that the romans had a democratic form of government from about 496 b.c. to about 27 b.c., when augustus consolidated his one man rule and initiated what we call the imperial period of roman government. however, augustus deceitfully let the roman people believe that democratic government had not been done away with, although when tiberius took over for him after he died it became clear that roman democracy was dead. my 'cousin' p. cornelius tacitus wrote scornfully and vitriolically about the shameful state of roman public life under the emperors...

REPUBLIC (american heritage dictionary)

1.a.A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.

b.A nation that has such a political order.

c.A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

d.A nation that has such a political order.

2.a.A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

b.A nation that has such a political order.

DEMOCRACY (american heritage dictionary)

1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

2.A political or social unit that has such a government.

3.The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

4.Majority rule.

5.The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

yoyo --

snark detector, briar patch, etc.

What is it about wingnuts and things that shall not stand? Just askin'.

Name one other "Right" that takes another person to gaurantee that you get it. If there is no health care provider whom do you get your right from? What morons!Do any of you know how an insurance compny works? They are like a Las Vegas casino and they work the odds to make a profit. If the government stepped in and told them that everyone must be a winner, how long do you think they would be in business? This is what Obama just did. The young can no longer get cheap health ins. because of their age and the ill can not be denied because of their illness. Where will the profit come from? Oh that's right Medicare!

They are like a Las Vegas casino and they work the odds to make a profit

if you had worked in a reinsurance company like i did you would know a little more about it. that isn't how insurance companies make most of their money

i bet you also think banks get rich on savings account fees

Why is it I can get a response to my comment but my comment doesnt come up? Feel free guys, I know you might have to pay for an item you haven't cost, eg premature babies but then again others are paying for things they dont use eg: national parks, firestations etc.

the short and the long is that you right wingers would prefer to see your neighbours die in the gutter than pay for their children with asthma.

You know what won't stand in my land? A child dying because his parents were unable to afford the care that he needs. Maybe this bill will help put an end to that. So honestly, what's the big deal? I have really been trying to wrap my head around the anger, and the thing I keep coming up with is... government bad. Beyond the odd notion that the govt. can't do anything right? What's your problem with universal healthcare?

If I were a doctor or listening to these ignorant progressive twits prattle on that health care is a right, that people have a right to my time, a right to my work, a right to my life, I would hand a sign on my office door that said "Practice Closed. I will not be a slave."

Then I'd buy a nice lawnmower and go into landscaping. CASH ONLY.

We have a war now, should this become law. The little liberal weenies who have been crying about illegal wars over seas are about to have a real reason to cry. This shall not stand in my land.
Never.

"My land" is your mom's basement, right?

Who pays for free ER care for the uninsured?

Local taxpayers. In Palm Beach county FL, service providers are reimbursed by the taxpayers ~$160M/yr.

At least this site allows non-wingnuts to post. The other brave wingnut sites(I'm looking at you Redstate) block any comments that they don't like. So brave and tough. So where's the revolution wingnuts? "Don't tread on me" well you been stomped! So do something about it. We know you're all talk because repubs don't keep their word on anything. Plus you're not brave people- hence dodging the draft all the time and having gay sex in airport bathrooms. I'd say exhibit 1 on repub toughness is bush reading "My Pet Goat" after he was told of the attacks on the twin towers. I love all the tyranny talk over healthcare but you were all silent when bush fired US Attorneys, Wiretapped US citizens,Medicare part D, lied us into war etc. I love the screaming about the cost when you were silent about Billions in Cash sent over to Iraq where it was promptly lost. Try to get your little heads around this-
losing everything you own because you happened to get sick is the height of tyranny. And passing a bill into law when you have been elected is not tyranny. It's called democracy.

If there is no right to health care, how is there a right to life? I guess I have a right to life unless I get really sick then I have a right to die? If there is no right to the basic necessities of life...like food, water, shelter, and health care, then there is no right to life. If I am a woman I should be free to have an abortion because the fetus, even if you consider it a legal person, has no right to life and no right to use my body for its nurishment and development. Sorry didn't mean to get into the abortion debate here, but seriously how can there be a right to life, without the right to the bare necessities to maintain life?

Lol - if these Fascists had any guts to 'em they'd pick up a weapon and steal from American citizens face-to-face. Instead, they cower behind their Kenyan messiah's statist apparatus and call their theft "a universal right", "compassion", blah blah. CS Lewis had it right - villains who commit crimes "for the common good" are by far the most loathsome sort.

"We have a war now, should this become law. The little liberal weenies who have been crying about illegal wars over seas are about to have a real reason to cry. This shall not stand in my land.
Never. "

Riiiight. Try it. I dare you. Double dare. I might be a progressive but I am quite ready for you.

"We have a war now, should this become law. The little liberal weenies who have been crying about illegal wars over seas are about to have a real reason to cry. This shall not stand in my land.
Never. "
Hardee Har Har!

Bring it Odious!

Riiiight. Try it. I dare you. Double dare. I might be a progressive but I am quite ready for you.

What is this - a middle school playground? Takes a real man to threaten other posters over the 'net.