>after all, with me and you picking up the tab, there is little incentive for Flythe to change his behavior to help regulate his diabetes.

Yes! Seeing certainly isn't motive enough.

>He very well may die of one of any number of other health problems as Obamacare drives medical device manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, and doctors out of business.

Yes! In every Western country that has universal health care there is no medical R&D or innovation. In fact there hasn't been dozens upon dozens of medical breakthroughs and developments in Europe over the last five decades.

America is doomed because Americans will no longer have to destroy their life savings to pay for medical disasters. This is worse than 9-11 x 10 billion to the power of infinity!

And you CY are going to have to pay for it all, every dollar you make you will owe two that will go to some lazy diabetic who is too stupid to work his pancreas. He will sit there throwing insulin out his window because hey, he's not paying for it and it looks cool when it smashes on the ground.

Sucker!

I agree with salvage. Anybody still paying taxes is a sucker.

Anybody paying off their credit cards, their mortgage, or generally living within their means is a hick and a rube.

I read in the news this morning about a recently diagnosed, new, mental disorder called ODS: Obama Derangement Syndrome. It seems that it mostly affects Republicans and others on the far right. A recent Harris Poll offers up some interesting statistics to confirm some of the symptoms of the mental disorder.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-03-22/scary-new-gop-poll/?om_rid=CjSeck&om_mid=_BLqLIwB8GkeDBR&

tip: the daily beast isnt the "news". ODS would only effect those who think we govern under the constitution. The fact you think this is only Republicans and the far right says much about you. Salvage, I noticed you didnt actually point out all that innovation you claim for Europe. Why is that? The obvious fact that the gentleman has NOT modified his behavior indicates that blindness is NOT a motivational factor. And finally the vast majority of Americans "ruined" by some medical disaster because they had no insurgence, could have been prevented by a high deductible catastrophic insurance plan. For less than the monthly price of cable, or cigarettes or beer, the vast majority could have insurance. It certainly doesnt pay for everything, but if something really bad happens to you, you will have to shell out about as much as you would for a new car (and they let you do it over time) but it will not bankrupt you. But as stated, you might have to decide over that and cable, or cigarettes, booze etc. I have no doubt there is a very small minority of people this doesnt cover, but I think they could be helped without screwing over everyone.

Salvage, I noticed you didnt actually point out all that innovation you claim for Europe. Why is that?

Because there is no innovation, Europeans medical science leads in no area, they've had no breakthroughs, not a one, that's why every medical professional flees Europe and moves to America where they can get paid for their work, in Europe doctors live on the street begging for spare change.

And yes, insurance companies are great, the way they do everything they can to avoid paying out so they keep everyone's premiums as low as possible. Can you imagine how much medical insurance would be if people used it when they needed it? For profit baby not people! Stupid government plan isn't for profit so how can it be any good? It's going to be run like the army or the police and look at how crappy that all is!

When will people learn? The American government hasn't done anything right since the 1700s.

I'm not promising that our existing medical research would find cures for each and every malady if left alone, but there simply are no credible claims that Obamacare or any other iteration of socialized medicine leads to future medical innovation, and plenty of data to suggest it cripples progress.

Excellent point!

"Flythe was among the patients Monday at the Walltown Clinic, a joint program of Duke University and Lincoln Community Health Center that serves the low-income neighborhoods near Duke's campus. The clinic serves 3,000 to 4,000 patients a year – 80 percent don't have health insurance – and charges co-pays based on what patients can afford."

So he DOES get health care that he can afford.

Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare goes way down if you spend next to nothing on R&D leeching off the US for new drugs and procedures (which is why so many foreign leaders come to the US for medical care), pretty much ban lawsuits against government run plans (no need for alot of malpractice insurance, report deaths as natural causes when the truth is otherwise. A positive outcome in Europe is one where you DIE and stop consuming rationed healthcare. You dont see millions of Americans fleeing to Europe to take advantage of their socalled wonderful healthcare. It would be cheaper just to buy plane tickets to Europe for those who like socialized medicine.

Eventually it catches up with you. Greece is a prime example - they have 1/5 the doctors they need and you basically have to pay bribes to avoid long waiting lines. Oh, and Greece is on the verge of financial collapse. Good luck to Greeks seeking free healhcare when the government collapses. Several other European countries are just slightly behind Greece and will run into huge problems as their populations age.

From a Socialist website, yet!

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/feb2010/gre3-f25.shtml

"The catastrophic situation in the health service has lead to widespread corruption. The combination of low wages and thousands of permanent posts for doctors and maintenance personnel remaining unfilled in state hospitals means that bribes are a part of everyday life. Anyone seeking basic care or an earlier date for their operation slips the doctor a “Fakelaki”—a small envelope containing cash.

Younger physicians, who speak out against such immoral practice or reject such payments are likely to be pressurized by their colleagues for threatening what is widely seen as a vital wage supplement. “The birth of a child in a public hospital, for example, must be lubricated with the sum of €1,000”, reported Ellen Katja Jaeckel, the head of the Athens office of the Goethe Institute, in an interview over the protests in Greece 2008."

the only financial change to the american health care economy in this bill is to funnel $100 billion or so a year into the existing private insurance companies

the money for this is to come from a %1 increase in the marginal rates for families with incomes over $250k/yr, and on "cadillac" health care plans like those supplied to CEOs and auto workers with union contracts

somebody explain to me please how adding $100+ billion a year to the bottom line of private insurance companies is going to restrict any aspect of health care in this country

Salvage,
As I read the med. lit everyday, why don't you point out meaningful European reseach? I know of some areas, but it is tied into American companies. Socialized medicine is not known for innovation. A good for instance is the development of angioplasty and intervention in myocardial infarction. The man who wanted to develop angioplasty moved here from Europe in the 80's. When we were advocating aggressive intervention in MI's, England was giving the people an aspirin and a shot of lidocaine and sending them home.

I really can't wait to see what happens to people like you when the consequences of this bill kick in. Talk about Obama syndrome.

Oh, the man with diabetes. He will go blind no matter what the state of his insurance as tight control of diabetes is not associated with meaningful prevention. He could loose weight and stop smoking, but that is usually too much. And, he does have medical coverage at this moment, the same as all Americans as everyone is covered with medical services in the US. The bill does little to chage that concept, only to socialize you.

DeCarlo Flythe is on Facebook, and he's very sensitive about the fact that there's no such thing as Santa Claus. He's got a lot of time on his hands, though.

CY - where in the story you link does it say that Flythe has 'poor lifestyle choices'?

And have you looked at the most recent Fortune 500 list of the biggest pharma and biotech companies in terms of revenues? A bunch of them are in countries with 'socialized medicine' - UK, Switzerland, Germany, Japan, Israel, Denmark, France, etc.

Your line about socialized medicine crippling progress and stifling innovation is not borne out by the facts.

Snoopes,
They are selling here. The structure of socialized medicine does not allow for innovation as would help to create new drugs. Our government is already lining up to get this concept going. Doctors will be given a list of meds for each disease state, you choose from the list.

-- "the quality of service consistently goes down in nations where socialized medicine has been tried, even as costs go up. Rationed care is an inevitability." Um, I wish that were true. If by "socialized medicine" we mean the other OECD countries, their quality, costs and availability are almost universally better than ours. Most are improving in those categories. We're not. This bill may not fix that, but we've got to do something.

-- But I do endorse your implication that people should be encouraged to adopt healthier lifestyles. I know some conservatives call this "socialism," but we have to act. Alas, most obese people are in the red states. Sad but true. So making them healthier is in the GOP's interest.

Greece is a prime example!

Yes! Greece's economy was destroyed because people paid for health care through their taxes! There is absolutely no other possible reason.

But weird that it hasn't happened in every other country in the world that has the same system.

Of course those places also have no doctors, no hospitals, no medical universities or industries, they just steal stuff from America and says they did it.

It's going to be funny when the new system kicks in and the only change people notice is they don't have to pay 1000s to the insurance companies and y'all will still howling about how bad it is.

Be a bit like Saddam's WMD, even when you're shown to be wrong you'll never admit it.

Ha ha, you're right, because not losing your sight isn't an incentive or anything, and poor people now are all about getting preventative care, but now that they qualify for a subsidy, they'll totally just wait until they have painful and debilitating medical conditions and then go to the doctor ON OUR DIME. I know this one guy who is on food stamps and he says he's already started shaving too close. His plan is to get some ingrown hairs and let them develop infections, and then wait until they become really serious and expensive to treat, and then he's going to finally go to the doctor.

Salvage,
Stop trying to be ironic, you're terrible at it. Read BlameBush. It's an effective parody of people just like you.

the only financial change to the american health care economy in this bill is to funnel $100 billion or so a year into the existing private insurance companies

They are not "private insurance companies" any more, they are arms of the state. Private companies don't get to "funnel $100 billion" to themselves at gunpoint. In return for that $100 billion the formerly private insurance companies throw a few hundred mill to the corporate whores in the Democrat party.

So the formerly private insurance companies make out like bandits, as does the Fascist Party. Health-care consumers? Who cares about them?

It's going to be funny when the new system kicks in and the only change people notice is they don't have to pay 1000s to the insurance companies

Since the new bill REQUIRES people who currently pay zero dollars to the insurance companies to start paying thousands of dollars to the insurance companies, that's going to be pretty fricking "funny" all right.

Do any of you Demodopes have the slightest idea what you've just signed up for?

that guys a fool!!!

>Since the new bill REQUIRES people who currently pay zero dollars to the insurance companies to start paying thousands of dollars to the insurance companies,

Yes! And if they don't they'll be thrown into the Obama reeducation camps!

You are very smart for noticing this thing that no one else notices.