Damn you and all your liberal blogger friends, you're ruining America.

Don't think you can weasel out of it, a few weeks ago you said that The President's plan of painting a spy plane in UN colors and hoping to get the American Pilot shot down by Saddam Hussein was a stupid plan and clearly a forgery.

Well, what do you have to say for yourself now, America-hater? The facts are clear: The President wanted to do it, therefore if you were against it, you hate America and The President and The Troops.

This is just another example of you liberal bloggers and Islamo-Fascist lovers subverting Our President's Wartime powers. I hope Ann Coulter kicks your skinny Democrap ass, Freedom-hater.

Oh wait, you hate liberals too. I must have been confusing you with Al Franken.

Employers who hire illegals must be heavily fined.

Why not put them in handcuffs? Why not charge them as felons?

You seem to think the US Government is set-up to help out us "common" Americans.

It's not. It's set up to do the bidding of the corporations.
It doesn't matter what you (or I) want, it only matters what the corporations want.

If they want cheap labor, cheap labor they will get.

What part of "illegal" do the honorable senators not understand? By this twisted logic, if I show up with my camping gear and settle down on their "private property", I'm not a trespasser, merely "un-documented". Watch out boys and girls in congress, election day is coming!

If these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans (they're not), and this is a problem for those on the right(or the left), where is the outrage over outsourcing of customer service and manufacturing jobs? Those are jobs Americans actually WANT - as opposed to picking strawberries while being sprayed with insecticide. "American" corporations have moved tens of thousands of jobs South of the border. Everyone will make noises about "Illegal Immigration" and "Civil Rights", Congress will pass laws, but in the end nothing will change. This country is addicted to cheap labor. Always has been.

CY you got it right... My wife and I were in traffic court two weeks ago (wifes minor violation) they were at least four hispanic males for court. They were charged with FAILURE TO STOP FOR A SCHOOL BUS...YIKES!!! These guy's had no drivers license, no proof of insurance. no I.D. of any kind. No proof of residency. Furthermore they could not speak or understand english. The court provided a TAXPAYER FUNDED interpreter @ $80.00+ dollars an hour. They paid there fines and walked away. This is intolerable. These guy's were constuction workers. They pay no Taxes, they use county public TAXPAYER funded medical facilities. Their Kids go to Public schools (and don't speak english). At the time of their violation they were driving company trucks.... I totally agree with you we need to get them out of here and prosecute the companies that hire these guy's. The business owners know these guy's are illegal. They do not pay Social security, Medicare or workmans comp on them. I know alot of more than qualified construction workers that are unemployed. Do you think for a second that when these companies bid to build your house or build a road that they give you a discount because they only pay these guy's $5.00 an hour and no employer related taxes! I don't think so... We need to get off our collective rears and scream about this to our so called leaders. I went to MM's site and went through the roof. You are absolutely right, the school officials that took part in this need their asses fired. As I have stated in previous post's my wife is foreign born. My son was born overseas while I was stationed there (U.S. Citizen) it took over a year to apply and process for my lawfully wedded wife and American son to get Visa's and Passsorts. We had to provide all the necessary Medical Examinations, Affidavites of support, background investigations etc. So... If I had to do it they should have to. Amnesty is bullshit. Thats another invitation for more of them to come. Whether Latino's choose to believe it or not this is THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA not Mexico we are for the most part a collection of Law Abiding Immigrants. So if you are here legally you are all my brothers and sister. If you are not, you need to leave and come back after you have been documented and screened. This is a country based on the rule of law if you can't abide by it we don't need you!!!

So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.

What's the plan for makign sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin helping stop illegal immigration?

I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.

And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.

I agree with you Nick. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. But, we have to do something these folks cannot be absorbed into our society by the wave of a magic wand. Just stop and think for a moment. These folks by and large are good hardworking people. But, they are not highly skilled. I donot mean thatin a derogatory manner. They earn $5.00 to $7.00 an hour. alot of these folks are senior's our social security system is going to collapse. Our medicare system is overburdened. At that wage scale most if not all will qualify for food stamps and public housing. I for one do not want to pay for all of that. Schools are at capacity now with students who can't speak english, teachers try to give them as much attention as they can but, what about the kids that their parents pay taxes. I don't blame anyone for wanting a better life but, there is a right way and a wrong way. There is no doubt their home countries Govt's are corrupt and there are no welfare systems. But, I as a vast majority of Americans cannot fix that problem. A program that rewards ciminals is not the answer.
I for one will vote against any of my elected officials that support an amnesty program.

What immigration problem?

So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.

A former Border patrol supervisor has what sounds like a very workable plan I found over at Sister Toldjah’s site. It is too long to post in its entirety, but here are the main points:

The 1st order of business is to get Congress serious about stopping this flow. To actually do it will require several things to happen at once. There has to be a Guest Worker program. It should be run by the Homeland Security and would have several steps.

• The employer would place an order for the number of workers he would need for the year. He would guarantee to provide Housing, Medical and a legal wage. He would also withhold FICA and income taxes. 50% of the worker’s net wages would be held in an escrow account and paid to the worker upon his return to Mexico at the end of his contract.
• All contracts would be issued in Mexico. The Homeland Security team would have their offices in Mexico (U.S. Consulates could be used) and would screen all applicants for contract for health problems or a criminal record. No family members would be allowed to enter the United States as dependents of the worker. A spouse could have her own contract but could not bring any children.
• Illegals presently working in the United States could have their employer request that they be given a contract under the new program, but they would have to return to Mexico to make application for the contract. (Self-deportation.)
• All contracts would be for one year or less and would have to be renewed in Mexico.
• Enact laws requiring severe mandatory fines ($5000 per alien) for hiring an illegal alien outside of the Guest Worker Program and aggressively enforce them.

In short, you kill the market for illegal jobs by building a controlled legal market that is competitive, while simultaneously making the illegal market too risky to engage in. It will not result in mass government run deportations, but a gradual, economics-run repatriation of illegals.

What's the plan for makign [sic] sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin [sic] helping stop illegal immigration?

First off, by making illegal immigration unprofitable as the plan above and similar ones would do, Mexico’s involvement wouldn’t matter. If we felt we needed to send a message, economic penalties would certainly suffice. Remember all those jobs that people are outsourcing? Tariffs imposed for non-cooperation can make those go away as well. They could of course retaliate with oil production, but they are more economically fragile than we are, and they know it.

I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.

Again, taken care of by the plan above. There would be no place for them to work, because nobody would hire them, hence no attempt to try to illegally immigrate. What you and none on the left never mention is that by allowing illegals into the marketplace in the first place, they hurt low-skilled and trade-skilled Americans, most notably American blacks, recent legal immigrants, and young Americans. If you want more Americans off social services (which Democrats don't, they want the nanny state instead of independence), quite depressing the labor market. Americans will do the work, when they are paid a fare market rate for their efforts.

And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.

You are correct, but this is not one of those times.

Robert,

What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals.

When I lived in San Diego the illegals were hired every day for about $20 per day mostly by contractors and landscapers. I guess those small outfits might be incorporated.....

But the problems do exist. There were quite a few Mexican nationals - people with money mind you - caught bringing their kids over the border to drop them off at bus stops in Chula Vista. Better education here - and they paid not taxes. Free health care to - we have to take care of the indigents.

The biggest problem is how to handle and control it all. Until that is solved - and until the government gets serious about solving it - nothing will change.

For a wicked satire on the immigration problem and the proposed amenesty, see http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?p=456 for A Brilliant Proposal To Deal With Car Theft.

Amnesty. PIMF.

"What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals."

Any corporation that deals with construction, landscaping, food service, or janitorial services benefits from illegal immigration. Just about every corporation deals with these in some form or another.

Republican's will never do anything that hurts the bottom line. They will use harsh enforcement of existing laws as a wedge issue for the '06 election then pass the guest worker plan that no one wants. In other words it will be what gay marriage was in 2004. The plan was spelled out in a memo from Lamar Smith to Karl Rove that was accidentally sent to the wrong fax machine in Sept. 2005.

i hate to go all new-agey right out of the box, but there is one, and only one, way to stop illegal immigration, and that is by severely punishing both the people, as individuals, and the corporations that hire illegals.

that's it.

we cannot, and will not, disciple mexico's behavior as a nation. we, as a nation, have shown neither the will or the ability.

we cannot stop the individuals who cross the border. each arrest is arresting a drop of rain in rainstorm. jailing one opens a job for another.

what is left is discipling our own behavior -- that is the new-agey part -- and specifically, the behavior of those fellow citizens who hire these people. it was said earlier, but if there are no jobs, there are no illegals.

that is the only thing that will work, and we are not prepared to do that, because it would mean and least two things:

1. there would have to have a living wage.

2. the people who hire illegals must go to jail.

we can bloviate all we want about what the mexicans need to realize. what we, as a nation, need to realize is that it is our brothers and sisters -- fellow citizens of the good ol' USA -- who are hiring these folks. they are betraying us. they, not the mexicans. the mexicans have nothing to betray.

Visiting Lefty here -- and I deeply apologize for all the fools on my side of the fence who want to be nice to the poor, oppressed illegals (sorry, "undocumented workers," or whatever the euphemism du jour is). But what's your excuse for the Republican pols, huh?
This is something that both sides should be able to agree on -- there are far too many Americans out of work, or under-employed, for us to justify giving ANY American jobs away to illegals. To Jake, who said they're NOT taking American jobs away -- please, I don't understand how you could possibly say that. If the illegals weren't here, the jobs WOULD be taken by Americans -- because the employers would be forced to pay free-market (which means: HIGHER) wages -- wages for which Americans would happily work. Isn't it funny how these staunch supporters of the free market suddenly blanche, have attacks of the vapors, and yell for Uncle Sugar to give them a nice amnesty program by which they can continue to pay SUB-market wages to people who shouldn't be part of the market at all.
And if THIS doesn't prove to you that the Republican politicians are NOT ON YOUR SIDE (except when it comes to RHETORIC), then I don't know what will.
Not that any of our Dem "leaders" are any bettter on this issue, of course. They're ALL selling us down the river for their corporate masters -- and we're ALL just standing here and taking it! Why is that?

Walmart is one of the biggest employers of illegal aliens in the country although they try to hide the fact by using firms that hire illegals so that they don't get sued.

It's like the drug problem. As long as Americans have a craving for cocaine, some enterprising indiviuals will find a way to provide it. As long as US employers crave low wage workers, enterprising Mexicans will be here to fill the jobs. Don't kid yourself, illegal Mexicans are now doing jobs that many Americans would love to have. I was at a construction site in Washington State last year and observed that there were very few Engish speakers to be seen. Mexicans were framing, hanging drywall etc. I have nothing against Mexicans, but I curse the construction company that sold American jobs down the river.

smartalek - you're honestly making the point that americans would pick strawberries and lettuce with no bathrooms and no protection against the cropdusting? the agricultural industry wouldn't survive the retooling needed to bring wages and conditions up to american standards, even as low as they've become lately.

there are jobs americans just won't do anymore. funny you should mention the free market - it's free market forces that bring the flow of cheap labor north from mexico and central america. all the supporters of nafta seem to think that it's good and proper for goods and capital to flow across the borders freely, but somehow not labor. whether republican or democrat or whatever, i see a lot of people like smartalek laboring under the misconception that (as you just posited)if all the illegals were somehow regulated, deported, whatever, that "free market forces" would bring the wages up to a point where americans would want them. nice fantasy. surprised to see a "lefty" trotting out that tired canard. "free market" in today's america means "unchecked capitalist greed" - see the wal mart post above. that's your free market for ya. outsourcing, selling our ports to dubai, enron, worldcom...

assuming our agricultural industries could adjust to a completely new wage structure and pool of (imaginary)american workers is just that -an assumption with no basis in fact. they've got you distracted with this immigrant boondoggle - the real american middle class manufacturing and service sector jobs are going overseas. if you think migrant farm labor and carwash jobs are going to drive american prosperity, you are deluded enough to be a bush supporter. i know you're happy to have a little wedge issue to taunt the righties with, but both sides have been wrong on this issue for a long, long time.

have you ever heard of the phillipines? or puerto rico? or guam? there are plenty of other sources of non-native cheap labor. so build your fence. throw out every single illegal from mexico, etc. both guam and pr are american territories so there is no documentation issue. the corporate masters of both parties will do all they can to keep wages low, corporate taxes likewise.

I have several thoughts on this subject that are bothering me. First, most of the businesses large and small that employee illegals pay less than the minimum wage. But congress seems to think this is ok, so those businesses that follow the federal dictates lose contracts or must close because of the minimum wage issue. This seems ok with our congressional representatives. Second, the main power in the Democratic party (aside from special interest) is the labor unions. Yet the Democratic party is very much for the cheaper labor thus undermining their base. Third, the media and some states are forcing Wal-Mart to provide health insurance. Yet our politicians and the media support the businesses that employ the illegals who clearly do not provide any fringe benefit. Finally, if the illegals are allowed to stay then they will be registered and are no longer cheap labor. They will then be replaced by another batch of illegals who work cheaper. The first group will then be on welfare. Is something wrong with the logic here? As to writing your congressman, do they really listen? Mine don't.

The plan seems solid to me on many levels. It definitly makes it not worth it to business to hire illegals. However Self deportation? For some reason unless we get real serious real quick, thats never going to happen.

And doesn't it seem awfully beaurcratic to you? It seems like it give Homeland Security another tool to be inept. I would have to place in Labor or Commerce .

And secondly I resent the fact that you believe all Democrats want a welfare state, and all liberals wont talk about the minorities here that are jobless b/c of illegals.
First off most hard working middle class Dems arent for welfare/socialist states. We want to make sure everyone can be protected from the beast of capitialism if they one day need it. Some would suggest Republicans will never relate to that, but I won't slander you all.
Second, if there was such a demand for these jobs by our underclass citizens, then why are they there? Why aren't they taken up with the giddyness people believe they have for them. Its because no American wants them. Even in our poorest people can have too much pride.

Shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week is a terrible job no Americans would want.

BUT, shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week at $35/ hour is something i think many Americans could handle.

The jobs don't suck, the pay does.

The person up-post who says those that believe in the invisible hand of the free market suddenly blanche is 100% correct.

If strawberries cost $20 a pint because we have to pay $15/hour to Americans who pick them, then demand for strawberries may go down. Isn't that a free market effect?

I don't really have much else to add to this immigration debate that hasn't already been said by someone else above, but I will say this: I'm about sick of the characterization of illegal immigrants having committed "crimes" and of being themselves "criminals." I really want to know if people who honestly think that(and aren't simply flogging a talking point to death) really believe if illegal immigrants are on par with thieves, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, child abusers, embezzlers and the other assorted types of criminals we lock up in our prisons. Yeah it's true that if you make an act a crime, and someone commits that act, then they are a criminal. But it's not the same thing, and I don't honestly know how anyone can think so; there's just not any criminal culpability there, like real criminals possess. Whatever you think of them, most illegals are just trying to get over here to work so they can send some money home to their families, and I don't really know how that can be characterized as a "crime" in the common sense meaning of the word. So all this talk about treating them with handcuffs, just like we drug dealers and murderers, is ridiculous.

Isn't reconquista the same as Zionism?

There are many jobs that American workers will not do because of low wages, no benefits, and bad working conditions. But if the pay and benefits are good, they will do them, which is clearly demonstated by the fact that there are many Americans willing to work as coal miners, a dirty and dangerous job, because the pay is good.

As far as the agricultural industry is concerned it is totally unacceptable for anybody (even illegal aliens) to be expected to work without protection from cropdusting. This simply should not be permitted, no matter who is doing it. Without the illegal aliens things like porta potties would have to be supplied the agricultural workers, just as they are for construction workers. With higher labor costs, a lot of the back-breaking work would be done by machines with workers driving them while sitting in air conditioned cabs.

I would say that illegal aliens are on par with American tourists who bring items subject to import duties bought abroad into the country without declaring them so that they can avoid paying import duties on them. But they are not on par with bank robbers, or something similar.

"Illegal immigrants" are not "immigrants," they are criminals. If any of us were to drive without a license we expect to be punished. An illegal alien who was pulled over and handcuffed is now claiming that the handcuffs hurt her and violated her civil rights.

Those who state that all of "the people" have rights need to reread the Constitution, not just the Bill of Rights, but the Constitution, particularly the 14th Amendment (1866) where citizenship was defined. The "people" were given definition. Certainly, we accord visitors in our country certain rights, but to reward criminals with the rights that we, our ancestors, and fellow citizens fought and died for is a travesty. We are shouldering the responsibilities of maintaining and securing this land for ourselves and our children. In order to do these, we must include immigrants seeking legal employment, persons requesting shelter from a hostile, abusive government, and those who wish to join us as citizens of our great land.

Those who come as criminals, earn money as illegal workers, send their money to a foreign country to support that countries citizens and benefit from the services provided by our citizens are not shouldering responsibility. I was aghast when I found that they could apply for a tax ID number so that they could pay taxes! They are saying that this entitles them to our rights. They believe that tax money is all that we require of them? The few dollars that a handful of these criminals pay from the minimum wage jobs that they claim our citizens do not want is a not even a drop in the bucket.

We give much more than tax money. We have served and many have died in our military. We vote. We serve on juries. We volunteer in our communities. We run for elected office and support our candidates and elected officials. We are Americans. We do not take our citizenship lightly and we surely can't give it away to satisfy an ever-increasing mass of criminals who call themselves "illegal aliens..."

It is time that we stood up and were counted!

People who march into our country illegally in mass, try to change our national policy while remaining a citizen of another country, and place our flag in the conquered position are not people who wish to assimilate into our country and culture. Those who put another country's flag above ours, and put ours in the conquered position should either be considered invaders, or citizens whose actions are paramount to treason. We should treat them as such.