October 17, 2006
Gun Season
Woodlots and fields across the United States are filling with hunters of game both large and small throughout the coming weeks as rifle and shotgun seasons start in many jurisdictions around the country, but every year about this time we also see an increase—at least anecdotally—of a number of home invasions as the holiday season approaches. ‘Tis the season to be robbing.
As a result, it seems that as we get closer to the holidays, we see an increase in the number of potential firearms purchasers inquiring about home defense weapons for the first time.
Most potential purchasers turn to the "gun expert" in their family or circle of friends for guidance, who often in turn glean their information from other shooters and from gun magazines. Employees of gun shops are often another resource that people know and trust. Sadly, most of the information provided by all of these experts is—in my not so humble opinion—completely wrong.
Pick up any popular gun magazine in the United States today, and you will be quickly overwhelmed at the plethora of tricked-out tactical carbines based on the M16/AR15 platform, intimidating 12-guage combat shotguns, and highly customized pistols costing thousands of dollars. Odds are that when the conversation comes around to which firearms is best suited for home defense, gun magazine authors and your neighborhoods experts will quickly zero in on a 12-guage pump-action shotgun in one flavor or another, with 00-buckshot often mentioned as the ammunition of choice.
You could make a worse choice—a long-barreled single-shot Sharps rifle in .45/70, or on the other extreme, a cheap .25 semi-automatic pistol—but the ubiquitous 12-guage pump touted by neighborhood amateurs and professional gun writers is often the wrong choice for most homeowners.
I first addressed the point when I wrote a post called Overcoming The "Viagra Theory" of Home Defense on March 15 in response to an Instapundit reader looking for advice on a home security shotgun that could be used by her and her husband.
I have a great little .22 Browning rifle for plinking, but my husband and I are looking to purchase a shotgun for home security. Not sure what's the best shotgun to get for this, although I'm leaning towards a pump action for the sound effects, which I'm told can be a good deterrent. Would love to hear recommendations from folks. Also wondering if we can get a shotgun that can also be used for trap or skeet, or are guns just too specialized these days? Looking for cost info too, for new and used. Thanks for your advice!
This is very similar to the questions I got from husband-and-wife customers of mine two weeks ago under a far more stressful situation. They were two young homeowners awoken the previous night when someone attempted to force open the back door of their home. When they came to me the following evening they were still visibly shaken as they explained that they’d talked to an "expert" they knew who suggested a 12-gauge pump shotgun equipped with a extended magazine and filled with 00-buckshot cartridges. They were not the first customers sent to me who had been told to make that specific choice by the "experts" they knew, and they won't be the last. They went home with something else.
Why?
As mentioned previously, gun geeks are a knowledgeable lot, but not all of what they "know" applies to all people in all situations. Most of your gun magazine writers are by definition long-term firearms users, usually with military, law enforcement, and/or hunting backgrounds. The vast majority of these writers became familiar with the idea of a 12-gauge shotgun filled with 00-buckshot because that is the most common gauge and loading issued to military and police shotgun users over the past 100 years. As a result, the conventional wisdom, based upon decades of successful use of this combination in military and police shootings, not to mention millions of successful big-game animals harvested, is that this loading works. It is almost unquestioned.
But are soldiers and police officers the same audience as home defense purchasers, and would they use their firearms in the same way, and in the same kinds of situations? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no."
12-gauge shotguns used by the military are primarily used for close-quarters offensive operations, like house-to-house fighting, and in guarding prisoners. Shotguns used by police are generally used to augment handguns in standoff situations or for guarding prisoners. In both instances, the person wielding the shotgun, either soldier or policeman, is likely to be a reasonably fit male with formal weapons training that is interjecting himself into a situation where he desires to control and overwhelm an opponent with superior short-range firepower.
Homeowners defending their lives against home invasion do not share the same goals, training, or in many instances, physical characteristics as those assumed by gun writers and other experts.
Unless the Census Bureau is way off, the majority of the American population is neither young nor male, nor necessarily in the best of health. Once you consider that a significant number of potential home defense customers are small-framed women, men, or youth, or may be aging, or may have other issues that prevent them from easily controlling a full-size 12-gauge shotgun, the absurdity of recommending this firearm to all home defense users becomes readily apparent.
In the example of my customers above, both were on the short and stocky side, and a full-size shotgun of any gauge was simply out of the equation. Neither could easily shoulder the weapon. All too often, gun writers and other experts overlook this basic issue.
In addition to the size of their frames, neither customer had much experience with firearms nor physically very strong, and so expecting them to reasonably control a shotgun with a pistol grip was also a dubious prospect. The fact that they lived in a community with a relatively high population density—small homes back-to-back and side to side-to-side small lots—made overpenetration also a significant issue.
What did I end up recommending?
This, specifically, even though it was not something we currently had in stock at the time.
While sniffed at by the experts, a .410-bore shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more close-range stopping power than any popular handgun caliber, with far less danger of overpenetration. It is also much easier to operate and shoot accurately in high-stress situations than any handgun (which required well-practiced fine motor skills). The fact that this particular variant came with a laser-sight made it even more appropriate for these specific customers.
Is a .410 pump shotgun the "perfect" home defense weapon? Of course not; no weapon exists that can address the needs of all homes and homeowners. But what the HS 410 and other similar shotguns offer is a better compromise for most users, one that can be employed more successfully by a greater number of people. It is also often found at a far more reasonable price that the four-figure tactical firearms that seem to compose the bulk of the gun media's editorializing these days.
The advice I gave to the two customers I worked with was partially heeded. They were determined to leave the gun counter with something that night, and as I happened to be out of .410s at that time, they did as good as the could have under their self-imposed deadline.
They went with smaller shotgun than the full-size extended-magazine military-issue 12-gauge recommended by their friend. They selected a youth model 20-gauge with a shorter stock that both of them could handle reasonably well. They also went with light target loads instead of buckshot, which will be just as effective for the 12-15 foot ranges that they would expect, while being far safer in their dense suburban neighborhood.
There is no "one size fits all" solution for home defense. I simply wish more "experts" were willing to admit it.
Update: Just to clarify points made above, the average defensive gun use in home invasion shooting is across a room—generally 3-5 yards. At those ranges, common 12-gauge birdshot loadings penetrate 4.5 inches into ballistic gelatin for #8 shot, and 7.5 inches for #5 shot.
At the same range, 00-buckshot will penetrate 22 inches of ballistic gelatin, or translated into English, it will go through your target with enough velocity left to potentially wound or kill someone on the other side of your target, even if you hit your target with 100% of the pellets fired.
.410 loadings will of course have a smaller mass of shot (11/16 of a ounce at 1100+ fps) than the 12 gauge loading (1 ¼ oz of shot at 1200 fps) and a slightly lower velocity, but as Mossberg noted in it’s own research, that produces more than 800 ft/lbs of force at the home defense ranges mentioned, or about twice that of the venerable 230-grain Federal Hydrashok in.45ACP. and at these 3-5 yard ranges, they are quite capable of a one-shot stop.
If additional shots are necessary, the low-recoil, low-report of a .410 will make follow-up shots considerably easier than would a larger-bore shotgun. Fire a 12-gauge in an enclosed 12x12 box in low-light conditions, and tell me how easy it is to simulate a self-imposed flash-bang. Your odds of survival go down dramatically if you temporarily give up two of your five senses.
Update: I also realize now that I failed to specify which loading I'd recommend for a .410 shotgun for home defense. I tend to prefer the Winchester X4134 loading, a 3" shell loaded with 11/16 oz. of #4 shot, the Federal H413 GameShok with #4 shot, or the Remington Express Extra Long Range #4 shot in the SP413 loading.
These 3" loadings will in most circumstances at a 3-5 yard range produce a hole 1-3" in diameter penetrating up to 6 inches to the dead center of a human target, and the low-impulse recoil will allow rapid follow-up shots.
Again, no gun is suited for all self-defense scenarios, but for those who will choose to barricade themselves in a predetermined safe room and will have the good sense to stay there until arrive and clear the home, this particular firearm and ammunition choice may be ideal for some.
Preach it brother. I have been saying this for a long time now. I usually get into mild arguments with my hunting buddies when this topic comes up. I held a little "contest" with them last year. I put my .410 (no laser site) up against a 9mm, .357 and a 12 gauge. The target was 12 feet away. The target was one of those "weeble wobble" punching bags and was placed around a corner to simulate a house environment. We each came around the corner as fast as we could and fired. The .410 hit the target everytime. It was very east to draw on the target due to the gun's size and it pummeled the target. The handgun shooters missed the first two times they tried it and the 12 gauge grazed the target the first time. My buddies have been eating crow ever since.
Posted by: Squidgrunt at October 17, 2006 11:05 AMI've always been partial to a 9mm but can understand why a smaller shotgun would be at an advantage. I never got to play with one of them though.
Posted by: Retired Navy at October 17, 2006 11:53 AMIt may be true that a 12ga is not right for everyone but my old 1100 (or my 870) swing with ease. I'll keep those close to me reguardless of what "experts" say. Now, my BPS 10ga on the other hand does NOT swing well nor could i imagine touching that off in my house. I think that the report would implode my skull.
Posted by: markm at October 17, 2006 11:54 AMWe're thinking about getting my girlfriend a home defense weapon. She recently moved about an hour away for school, and is living in a city, very close to a high crime area. Two of her classmates were mugged at gunpoint a few weeks ago, cars broken into, etc.. I'm thinking of a small revolver. She has ample shooting experience with sporting clays, can handle my Garand as well as me, and would be a damned good shot with my USP .45 if her hand was bigger. I am soliciting suggestions for a good handgun for a woman whose hands are average sized, and has proven ability to handle high power handguns and long arms.
Posted by: Realist Citizen at October 17, 2006 12:17 PMKeeping a shotgun loaded with birdshot is a great idea, in case you get attacked by a BIRD. A 410 with birdshot works if it is a really little bird.
Take any shotgun loaded with #7.5 or #8 shot out to the range, shoot some phone books, stacked newspaper or what ever at 15 or 20 foot range. See what kind of penetration you get and you'll quickly understand why they invented buckshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 12:20 PMI'm sorry, did you just recommend BIRD SHOT?
Bird shot is for birds. Worrying about overpenetration is, imho, nonsense. Because anything that has enough power to hurt somebody is gonna have "over penetration" issues be it 9mm, 5.56mm, .308, 12 or 20 gauge. While worrying about overpenetration you lofted right into underpenetration.
Bird shot makes nice ugly flesh wounds. If you're using a shotgun (I myself prefer carbines, and pistols are, of course, just a way to get to your longgun), buckshot or slugs. Only. Birdshot is for little birds. A dove =/= a 200 pound guy.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Old_Painless from AR15.com made up the above website. It deals with penetration issues.
A .410 with birdshot is barely enough to hunt doves with. A dove is not a guy. A hanging moving "bag" is not a human being. Shit #4 buckshot in most tests barely penetrates flesh enough. God, there's reams and reams of accounts by EMT's of the lack of effectiveness of birdshot. It sure as shit doesn't stop anything but small birds.
Argh.
I'll still take a pencil barrel 14.5 inch AR15 with a Phantom 5C2.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 12:23 PMrealist citizen
S&W M-640 stainless, double action only, .38 Spl. with 2 inch barrel.
Any Taurus, Ruger or colt of this same size will also do.
Penetration is a major concern of mine for home defense. If you miss, you don't want to hit a person several rooms away (likely a relative or innocent neighbor) and unfortunately most handgun ammo will easily punch through drywall. Birdshot won't be knocking down people on the other side of the house.
Posted by: norm at October 17, 2006 12:25 PMTake any shotgun loaded with #7.5 or #8 shot out to the range, shoot some phone books, stacked newspaper or what ever at 15 or 20 foot range. See what kind of penetration you get and you'll quickly understand why they invented buckshot.
Thank you, Karl. If my home is ever invaded by a stack of phone books, I'll keep that in mind.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 17, 2006 12:25 PMNot being a part of any of the noted demographics above, I have opted for another inexpensive alternative:
I have a 12 ga Savage pump that I cleaned up the barrel and stock on down to the minimum legal specs.
It doesn't win any Turkey shoots but when kept lightly loaded with a lot of small shot, it is easy to move around and shoot. Nobody in the family has a problem moving it around.
Additionally, I don't have to worry about blowing out or penetrating any walls in my downtown row house.
Probably the best average citizen handgun would be a 4 inch barrel, stainless, S&W M-10 in .38 spl.
The best carbine a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9 mm
The reality is If you shoot someone who robs you with birdshot you are not trying to kill. Killing is frowned on.
Buckshot could be construed as Shooting with Malice. A planned desire to kill or cause great harm, A lawsuit action.
Barry03, are you insane?
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 12:35 PMThank you, Karl. If my home is ever invaded by a stack of phone books, I'll keep that in mind.Laugh all you want CY, but a few years ago a gang of out of work, 1994 Business Directories broke into my apartment. Luckily for me my .357 went clear through A-M and stopped around "Pilots - Pizza" in the other. I still can't look at the Yellow Pages without shuddering... Posted by: Robb Allen at October 17, 2006 12:36 PM
I mostly agree, but I have serious reservations on both .410 and on birdshot.
I agree that the 12 gauge (or even 20 gauge) should not necessarily be the general recommendation for the infrequent or non shooter, for all reasons cited. It is necessary to see that they leave with a weapon they can use to successfully defend themselves with.
I'm skeptical on .410: 1/2 oz of shot @ 1100 fps or a 100 grain slug @ 1700 fps yields ballistic power factors that are on par with, but not superior to common handgun rounds. (PF = (projectileWeightInGrains * muzzleVelocityInFPS)/1000)
I'm double skeptical on birdshot for home defense. Even in 12 gauge, birdshot is notorious as "not a stopper", causing ghastly, but shallow wounds at all but near contact ranges. Heck, if Dick Cheney's 78 year old hunting buddy can live through a face full of birdshot at 30 yards....
That being said, (which I acknowledge as being subject to debate) my general recommendation for the new/infrequent/non shooter looking for a home defense weapon is a pistol caliber autoloading carbine. Much easier to master than a handgun, not as problematic as a heavybore shotgun, and usually at least as, if not a bit more effective than a handgun in terms of power.
Posted by: geekWithA.45 at October 17, 2006 12:37 PM20 ga? Good choice for an inexperienced shooter
Birdshot? Not sure - now if you said #1 or #2...
I think a GOOD self defense load is the 2x4 duplex type load - except perhaps in wintertime in cold climates, where you might want a bit more..
Posted by: kg2v at October 17, 2006 12:37 PMRe; Confedarate Yankee and phone book attack.
Thats a funny line, but I'm serious about the total lack of penetration of birdshot beyond point blank range. Forget the phone books. Try a leg of lamb or a ham! Compare the penetration of birdshot to a .22 short, or a CB cap for that matter. I think you'll be suprised.
A 410 with a slug or the stacked ball loads might be viable, but unless your muzzle is within several feet of the assailant, I think birdshot is a bad idea.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 12:41 PMSpade
Yep! LOL
I like a 20 guage with 3 7s followed by 2 slugs. Chasem then killem if they don't get the idead from the bird shot. I also like a 38 revolver with 2 loads of bird shot followed by 3 hollow points. But then I have shot most of my life.
MPW
I second the "Preach it brother" comment. Bad gun advice is something that has been on my mind a lot lately (guilty myself).
Confederate Yankee is right-on that a lot of information by so-called "experts" is wrong. As one of those long-time gun-magazine-reading chairborne-commandos, I've had to re-evalate a lot of my preconceived notions over the years as I've taken beginners out shooting.
While things like muzzle velocity and muzzle energy are very easy to figure out, more important things like recoil and penetration are not.
I have no idea if a .410 will do the job; either loaded with bird-shot or slugs. I suppose when I have some more time and money, I'll get one and paly with it -- although I've been itching to experiment with 20 gauge (0.63") also.
As far as handguns, I've finally come to appreciate the S&W model 10, although I wish it wasn't so damned expensive, and had a better rear sight.
Let's face it; most people aren't gonig to be doing whatever it is Airborne Delta Team 6 does. Once they buy a firearm for home protection, they may shoot once a year. They don't need the latest AR-15 or M-1911 variant. They need something that they can remember how to use. A simple pump shotgun, pistol caliber carbine, or revolver is more than adequate.
That being said, I'd really like to see a lever-action carbine in .45 ACP (not .45 LC), or a pump-carbine that accepts common handgun magazines.
Being a self-labeled gun expert, I think that you are pretty much right on. I, too, think that there is an overabundance of the 'tactical' moniker which seems to be just a ruse to justify driving up prices. What I would have recommended to the above homeowners would more likely have been a pistol caliber carbine (Marlin camp carbine in .45? maybe a Hi-tech in .40S&W for $250?). Generally speaking, the controls are easy to manipulate, the weapon is easily controlled. Ammunition is cheap and plentiful, and IMHO, a minimal amount of training will produce sufficient ability to be effective. If one is worried about overpenetration, loading the first round with frangible ammo should be adequate. The rest of the ammo can be standard JHP or some variant since frangible ammo may not be the most effective stopper, and if the perp doesn't go down with the first shot, you may need that extra 'oomph' in follow-up shots.
Remember; anybody worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, because ammo is cheap but your life is precious.
I do not think that .410 is too little.Remember; often, .410 and .45 Colt can be shot out of the same revolver, and if you think that a .45 colt ain't enough...well, there I must part ways with you. Generally, I think that you should use whatever caliber you are most comfortable with because then you will practice more, and it is the practice that makes you capable, not the weapon itself. This is why a US Marine out to kill you with a pistol is far more dangerous than some gangbanger with a machine gun.
Posted by: doc Russia at October 17, 2006 12:50 PMHome defense ranges are usually measured in feet, not yards.
At a range of 10 - 15 feet (all the way across a typical room) birdshot is moving fast, has not dispersed, and will hit very hard. Much harder than it will at bird hunting ranges of 20 - 30 yards. It is still essentially a loose slug of lead at that range, and will unload all of its energy into the viscera of the target.
The stopping power of a full load of shot is determined by its total weight and speed; a 1 oz load of 00 buckshot and of birdshot hits just as hard off the same powder load, and at home defense ranges, you're either going to hit with everything or miss with everything.
I think birdshot would make a fine home defense round.
Posted by: R C Dean at October 17, 2006 12:51 PMC. Y. is right. In any real situation (scared silly housewife Who, me? Seventeen rounds in my 9 mm in the bedroom, and four rounds of No. 6 shot in my 20 Ga. in the living room. (And no kids in the house.)
Posted by: Texas Jack at October 17, 2006 12:51 PMA good auto handgun would be the Makarov in either 9 MM Mak or up graded to .380 auto
Why?
It's cheap and easy to use.
I agree that a 12-gauge is too much gun for many people, and I agree with others that the 410 and birdshot is too underpowered. You want your opponent down immediately, and you want him to fear you so much when you aim it at him that you won't have to use it at all.
IMHO the best bet is the .38 revolver for a handgun, because it is easy to operate and can be safely stored for long periods without critical springs getting weak. For a shotgun, I'd get a 20-gauge. My wife learned to use one easily -- first time. My mother used one, and my grandmother used one. It's easy to operate, doesn't over-penetrate, and packs more muzzle energy that a .44 magnum.
Posted by: kevino at October 17, 2006 12:53 PMI'm in the process of recommending a first firearm for a co-worker, whose only previous experience with firearms are the times I've taken him to the local indoor pistol range.
I'm strongly recommending, for a 1st-time home-defense weapon, a Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel or SP101 with 3" in .357 Magnum. Reasons?
- Double-action is simple to operate (when in emergency mode at close range, aim and pull the trigger).
- Not prone to jamming or failure.
- No slide or pump to rack to make ready for use.
- Storable loaded and easy for emergency access (yet secure from small hands) in bedside drawer-type safe (as opposed to a loaded shotgun).
- Affodable to practice with (.38 Special), but proven stopping power (with +P HP rounds).
- Short barrel makes it easy to "swing" in close-quarters of a home.
- Short barrel also makes it almost impossible for someone to close in and grab (you'll have a better grasp on it than they do).
That's my $0.02 worth.
Posted by: Blackwing1 at October 17, 2006 12:53 PM"...a .410-bore shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more close-range stopping power than any popular handgun caliber..."
Sorry if I'm showing my ignorance, but how is stopping power defined? Is it kinetic energy transferred, penetration of a standard surface, or some combination of factors?
Posted by: Iron Chef Oklahoma at October 17, 2006 12:54 PMWouldn't birdshot be better in most circumstances? I mean, you're not necessarily trying to spread an attacker's guts on the wall, just incapacitate him. Even in body armor, I have to think that would badly stun someone at close range if it has an equivalent punch to a .44.
Too, even for the most diciplined gun owner there is a nontrivial risk of accident, etc., for which would seem worth minimizing the possible destruction or property and person.
Last, if you kill the guy, there's all kinds of paperwork, and I hate paperwork. Sure, with a bigger gun you could shoot the paperwork too (see Robb and Karl above), but that only leads to even more paperwork, which would eventually build to a mass of processed wood pulp capable of absorbing even a tactical nuclear weapon, and just ask Kim Jong Il how hard it is to acquire those and get them to work properly.
Posted by: TallDave at October 17, 2006 12:55 PMWhat the heck are you talking about? BIRSHOT from a .410? You are insane.
You really should not be giving advice this bad to people who come to you looking for answers.
What a chump.
Posted by: What? at October 17, 2006 12:57 PMRemember
KISS Keep it simple.
Only the hits count a hit with a .410 in birdshot will do more harm than a miss with a .12 Ga slug.
My wife uses the S&W M-640 .38 spl
I use a winchester M-94 in 30/30 Mine is slow to load but her's is always loaded and available.
The .38's load?
148 gr. wadcutter.
CY wrote:
>While sniffed at by the experts, a .410-bore
>shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more
>close-range stopping power than any popular
>handgun caliber ...
Based on what? Specific birdshot demo pages from the Box O' Truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm
Hey Karl, you must admit Tippi Hedren might beg to differ.
http://hitchcock.tv/mov/birds/images/birds.jpg
/AHM
Hmmm.
Include me on the anti-birdshot group.
Unless you're really lucky and manage to blind the target then all you've really done is piss someone off.
As for the overpenetration issues, I'd suggest that's very very secondary. If I'm in a situation where I'm using a firearm defensively then that means that surviving that situation is the primary issue. Not overpenetration.
Posted by: ed at October 17, 2006 01:01 PMKarl makes a very good point. Is there any data to indicate that birdshot will penetrate deep enough? Doesn't matter how much muzzle energy a projectile has, if the projectile is not getting to vital organs, it is not going to stop the bad guy. I believe the FBI determine minimal penetration to be 12 inches. I am pretty sure that birdshot is not going to meet this requirement, even out of a 10 gauge.
See this study:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
A .410 or youth 20 gauge would be a good defense weapon for small people. However, they need to load it with buckshot not birdshot, if they want to be able to stop an intruder, not just wound him and piss him off.
Posted by: Jason H at October 17, 2006 01:04 PMI would suggest a 20 ga auto loader. In stressful situations it is easy to "short shuck" a pump resulting in a jam that would need to be cleared. If you use a Bennelli, I guarantee you it would never fail to load. The idea the the noise from a pump would scare the bad guy away is folklore, in the worst case it would reveal your position. Birdshot is safer, but not adequate.
Posted by: Dan in Michigan at October 17, 2006 01:05 PMWell sir I would've said the same thing but instead of a .410 (a good firearm) I would've suggested a 16 gauge with bird shot rounds ONLY because the size of the barrel of a 16 guage 'seems' to grab people's attention faster...
Personally I think the comment by, "What?" is the ranting of a delusional fool...
The person DOES NOT offer any contravening advice at all or explain his/her reasoning for dissing your suggestion... A gun control liberal made this, "chump" comment?
Posted by: juandos at October 17, 2006 01:05 PMWhile the bulk of the advice of Confederate Yankee is sound, his specific reccomendation was flawed. Specifically, lightweight birdshot doesn't stop human predators. The risk of overpenetration is wildly overstated unless you are living five or more to a room.
Try it now. Point your finger in any random direction, and then figure the odds that the parabolic arc extending from your digit will intersect another person. The chances of your missed shots hitting an innocent bystander are much less than the chance of an assailant deciding to kill you after you've hurt but failed to stop him.
The Box O'Truth is the best, even if not perfect, source on this topic. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ I used to believe in the birdshot theory, until I saw the tests run: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Posted by: Patrick S Lasswell at October 17, 2006 01:05 PMThank you, What?, for your insightful commentary.
Posted by: A fine scotch at October 17, 2006 01:07 PMI would not for one second trust a .410 loaded with birdshot to stop a man. There are far too many cases of men being shot at close range with birdshot and having nothing more than a nasty and shallow flesh wound. Consider a home invasion in winter when the bad guy is wearing several layers of clothing topped with the leather jacket.
And even with a spreader, at indoor ranges, the shot column is tight. You still HAVE to aim a shotgun.
Is that pump shotgun really that easy to use after the first shot? It's not hard to short stroke a pump gun under stress. I've seen quite a few folks shooting skeet or sporting clays short stroke a pump gun.
Are you going to move through your house with a shouldered long gun? What happens when you have to open a door? What happens when you have to turn a corner in a hallway? You either need to let the barrel preceed you in the hallway or point the gun down. Are you going to use a flashlight? How are you going to hold a flash light and a long gun while opening a door?
As far as penetration is concerned, while the medium is different in a human than it is in drywall, the basic physics are the same. A round must deliver sufficient energy upon impact to damage the bad guy's central nervous system or to create enough hydraulic shock to drop him on the spot. At indoor ranges, you might only get one shot. A round with sufficent energy to do this IS going to penetrate several layers of drywall.
I'll take a revolver, DAO or SA/DA handgun and a nice Surefire light any day of the week.
Suggested reading.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
Or just google "shotgun terminal ballistics" and see what you find. The author is in the extreme minority if he thinks a .410 loaded with birdshot is an effective defensive round.
Posted by: Wyatt at October 17, 2006 01:07 PMLove the .410, that's the gun I learned to hunt with and had no problems dropping grouse or even bagging rabbits with birdshot. Did have to go with #6's for pheasant to get some range. I think CY is absolutely right about the 12ga. I own a 12 pump for duck and goose hunting and I am average build 5'11" I could never imagine my 5'4" wife using the 12, I don't think she could reach the forearm grip to reload......
Posted by: Old Tanker at October 17, 2006 01:08 PM"Killing is frowned on"
I've been told by three cops that IF you have to shoot someone in your house, make sure they are shot dead. If they are not dead, lawyers enter into the frey and if the guy gets off light, you've now got a real pissed off crook that knows where you live. Are the cops full of shit??. Does it vary by state??. I'm in Michigan.
Posted by: markm at October 17, 2006 01:08 PMFor the uninitiated, you probably made the best recommnedation under the circumstances, to a justifiably and very upset emotional couple.
You would do a better business and better for the public to get them trained, thru gun safety, and have them think thru a home invasion and practice, ALOT.
If you can get the drop on Bad Guys ANY weapon works. (Hit men use 2-3 taps to the head from a .22 pistol).
In a High stress situation, a home invasion, a gunfight, where tunnel vision occurs, IQ drops to 60, unlikely these folk will wake from a deep sleep and be able to use a .410 to save themselves...
unless trained and practised. So the neighbors are safer from overpenetration of the buckshot with small birdshot. So are the bad guys, and I've had over 300 pounders in my house in a home invasion. Birdshot is for ... birdies.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
However, having a .410 guage, a 20, a 16 and a 12 guage for hunting, none of them are "Fast" on the swing or manueverability IN THE HOUSE. FBI statitics, all their gunfingt last less than 3 seconds with 2.6 shots fired.
Personally, I go for #3 or #1 Buckshot in the 20 guage and the 16 Guage. The Ithaca featherlite is workable for my wife & girls.
But WE PRACTICE, And I don't want wounded home intruders, not after last time. Too messy Too much court action.
Here in peoples reublic of Kaliforniastahn you'll lose your guns for sure if you shoot a home invader, but you'll be alive.
I'll take a jury trial for unlawful death over a jury for injury ANY day.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at October 17, 2006 01:09 PMYou picture this, your thinking of some good drugs and you don't want to work hard to get it. so you break into a home and come face to face with Mrs. homemaker all of 5' 2" curlers in her hair and bunny slippers with green goo on her face. You become aware she is holding a shiny silver and black firearm of unknown caliber and type.
Before you can say WTF Bro? your are aware of an explosion and fire while your skin is burning and bleeding.
do you,
1. rush to the li'l woman and overpower her.
2. realize she may have another shot and she can and has hit your a$$ once, turn tail and head to the emergency room.
you pick!
Birdshot will not stop an attacker physically. Psychologically--MAYBE. But when he realizes you just shot him and he's still standing... he's gonna be PO'ed and on an adrenaline high. Bad ju-ju.
Posted by: CJ at October 17, 2006 01:10 PMWell, most people should get a dog - a nice roti or GS from the pound will get you exercise, and its easy to train it to bark like crazy. A 75lb GS will deter someone from coming in your house, which is a much better option than trying to find your gun, your glasses, a flashlight, and then shooting the s.o.b. who broke in.
GS = full time protection, and most miscreants never come in your house - they pick on someone else. Plus, you get in shape.
Gun = part time protection (only when your home), and the miscreants have to enter your home before it works.
Having said that, if I was worried about penetration (as in hitting my kids in the next room), a 410 at 10 feet will do lots of damage, and a rifle is far easy to hit something with than a pistol.
If penetration is not an issue, then I might gun up to a 16 gauge (more power than a 20, not much more recoil) While I have gone through a couple hundred rounds of 12 in a weekend, many small framed individuals are never going to shoot 12 gauge enough to get comfortable with it. A 410 - heck, I can get my 12 year old to shoot that all day.
Posted by: ddcfamily at October 17, 2006 01:13 PMThe .410 pushes alot of lead, and in close quarters,
it would have significant power. As a former skeet
shooter I know it pushes shot just as fast as a 12 ga..
It's not a bad choice for a non-athletic woman. But,
if we're shopping for a firearm for the uninitiated,
I think the main qualities for that firearm would be
simplicity of action and low recoil. For that reason,
I recommend a revolver with a moderate cartridge.
But, whatever weapon is chosen, if there isn't gun
safety training, and time spent at the target range,
there isn't enough time and effort spent on the project.
Common sense for the common person. It really does boil down to what they can handle and what they are comfortable with. All the gagdetry and sophisticated tech stuff means nothing to many people - they feel as comfortable with a pump 20 as I do with my tuned and worked hot-loaded .357
Posted by: goesh at October 17, 2006 01:14 PMFor the uninitiated, you probably made the best recommnedation under the circumstances, to a justifiably and very upset emotional couple.
You would do a better business and better for the public to get them trained, thru gun safety, and have them think thru a home invasion and practice, ALOT.
If you can get the drop on Bad Guys ANY weapon works. (Hit men use 2-3 taps to the head from a .22 pistol).
In a High stress situation, a home invasion, a gunfight, where tunnel vision occurs, IQ drops to 50, unlikely these folk will wake from a deep sleep and be able to use a .410 to save themselves...
unless trained and practised. So the neighbors are safer from overpenetration of the buckshot with small birdshot. So are the bad guys, and I've had over 300 pounders in my house in a home invasion. Birdshot is for ... birdies.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
However, having a .410 guage, a 20, a 16 and a 12 guage for hunting, none of them are "Fast" on the swing or manueverability IN THE HOUSE. FBI statitics, all their gunfights last less than 3 seconds with 2.6 shots fired.
Personally, I go for #3 or #1 Buckshot in the 20 Guage and the 16 Guage. The Ithaca featherlite is workable for my wife & girls, if I'm not home.
But WE PRACTICE, And I don't want wounded home intruders, not after last time. Too messy Too much court action.
Here in peoples reublic of Kaliforniastahn you'll lose your guns for sure if you shoot a home invader, but you'll be alive.
I'll take a jury trial for unlawful death over a jury for injury ANY day.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at October 17, 2006 01:15 PM"Killing is frowned upon".
yes, even in justified self defense the LEO will investigate and you had better be well inside the law, sober and straight or you will be in court.
Here In redneck Ga. where I live you cannot use deadly force to stop the theft or destruction of your private property. you cannot shoot if your attacker turns and runs away.
up until recently deadly force could not be used outside your home/place of business.
The idea is you must be within that personal defense space of 15 to 5 yards even muzzle close shooting otherwise you are not considered in danger.
If the perp is unarmed you might even be arrested for shooting to soon.
best bet?
check your local laws for standards which are there to be able to shoot to kill.
There is also now available a .410 revolver which is even handier.
Posted by: John at October 17, 2006 01:20 PMI ask two questions back when I am asked about home defense guns. 1) How much are you going to practice? 2) Is this gun you are thinking of buying something you want to take to court and defend using on some poor innocent home invader, Rambo?
Besides, just how big a gun do you want to fire in the house without hearing protection?
Posted by: Max at October 17, 2006 01:21 PMRealist Citizen: I'd recommend a Glock Model 23 for both a concealed carry handgun and for smaller-handed sig-others. It is a .40 cal compact frame automatic. .40 cal is, imho, a well-mannered round with more knockdown potential than 9mm but without being unmanageable (.357, .45) for smaller adults. I've found the 23's design and size to fit my big-ish hand yet still be small enough to be comfortably shot by my girlfriends; it is also faily thin and conceals easily. The Glock's safety strategy, nearly snagless design, reasonable slide action, and reliability are also beneficial for your case.
Posted by: Scott B at October 17, 2006 01:21 PMddc family,
I gotta a great big ol' Great Dane that rattles windows when he barks, people don't come within a block, and at 120 lbs he'll knock anyone down.
On the .410, after the first shot with all the noise and pain the majority of burglers are haulin' outta there.....
Posted by: Old Tanker at October 17, 2006 01:24 PMI think your analysis of the 12-gauge is spot-on CY, and those choosing a shotgun are well served by the advice.
HOWEVER, I'm surprised you overlooked something. A longarm in a close-quarters combat situation might just be more of a hinderance than a handgun.
You can get the best of both worlds by carful selection of ammo. Namely, hangun caliber shotshell rounds. A quality highly reliable double action revolver with the first round being a shotshell followed by a hollowpoint would seem to be to be an excellent way to solve the problem.
You get the spread pattern from the first round and if a second round is necessary to stop the intruder, you have the stopping power of a hollowpoint to follow up with. Go a step further and make the third round another shotshell and you can quickly clear quite a large area.
Consider also rounds like the Glaser safety slug instead of a hollowpoint if you're worried about penetrating walls.
I find it sad that so many overlook the usefulness of handgun caliber shotshells when tackling problems related to home defense.
--Jason
Posted by: Jason Coleman at October 17, 2006 01:27 PMMy father was a very experienced shooter and hunter. He kept a loaded .38 special S&W hammerless in the nightstand drawer for my mother to use (she too was a good shot, but small), while he preferred his National Match .45 M1911A1. I prefer my old Browning Hi-Power.
Posted by: CatoRenasci at October 17, 2006 01:27 PM"...the projectile fired from a gun is a simple means of transmitting energy to the target. This energy is wasted, and becomes a potential hazard to innocent bystanders, if the projectile either misses or passes right through the victim....it is this stopping effect which is essential and any subsequent fatality is an undesirable side effect... All shotguns can be considered effective and messy up to forty or fifty yards..."
-David Penn, Keeper of the Department of Exhibits and Firearms at the Imperial War Museum, London, from "Murder Ink, the Mystery Reader's Companion."
Scott B
The Glock as well as other Autos of that type have the added safety around children in that the ammo/Magazine can be seperated from the firearm yet combined when needed.
Other reasons for the dog - its more portable, and you dont have to worry about a conceal carry permit - my girls can walk the dog(s), and they get a wide berth (who really wants to mess with a full size GS and Roti?)
If I could get carry permits for the girls (I can't)and get them to shoot often (only one will), and they were willing to shoot someone the first time (I doubt it), and the bad guys knew that they were armed and profecient (they dont), then a gun is close to a dog.
Posted by: ddcfamily at October 17, 2006 01:32 PMTo all birdshot lovers:
When you get done fretting about over penetration, and too much paperwork, and hurting your assailant too much, do yourself a favor. Take your 410 with the #8 shotshells out to the range. Shoot SOMETHING you can measure penetration in. Now shoot the same something with something you consider inadequate for defence, like a .22 rimfire short. Compare the two.
Why spend so much time wondering about something you can check out for yourself in about five minutes?
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 01:34 PMYou can discuss what type of firearm is the best for home defense all day long and never get anyone to agree. The fact is, no firearm is suitable unless the user is willing and able to undergo sufficient training to use it properly, under extremely stressful conditions. A firearm is only one option in home defense and usually the last one. How about spending money on PIR lights, proper doors and windows, trellidoors, alarm systems, a dog, etc. Home security should be planned with concentric perimeters, and a firearm is the last choice in that perimeter, and the one that requires the most training and presence of mind to use properly and effectively. Having said that....when the time comes to use that weapon, it needs to be simple and massively effective. A shotgun fits those requirements. 00 buck in 20 or 16 guage is the lowest I would go. You're not shooting outside your house in the front yard, you are fighting in the house, usually within 7 to 15 feet. A revolver meets the simplicity test and in the proper caliber, massive effectiveness, but training requirements are higher. Again, no tool works effectively without proper training that effectively simulates the conditions it will be used in.
Posted by: PAL at October 17, 2006 01:44 PMWith the exception of the birdshot advice, solid, good information.
The Box of Truth (amply linked above) has attacked the "is birdshot enough" legend enough to I think draw decisive answers.
I've still been known to load #4 bird in my 12 gauge for Home Defense - but I've been shooting pump shotguns since I was 10. I've got no problem putting 3 shots in about a second.
Mossberg spent a lot of time and money studying the issue, and they concluded that .410 buck was the best, overall, HD round for everybody. Light recoil, low noise (a 12 gauge indoors will rival a flash-bang), and effective at close range. The downside is the price of .410 buck, precluding most from training with it as extensively as they should.
12 gauge birdshot isn't going to effective enough to be sure. .410 certainly won't.
It may _work_, (insofar as wounding someone/turning them away), but if you shoot at someone, they'd better need killin'. If you absolutely must, go for _heavy_ birdshot.. #4 BBs at least.
But most importantly, whatever you get, it's not a magic wand. You MUST practice with it, and shoot it often enough to be familiar with it.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi at October 17, 2006 01:44 PM4" of flesh penetration isn't enough.
Man, we need DocGKR in here.
Birdshot is for little birds. Hence the clever name.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 01:47 PMThe Bird Shot is a really bad idea as a stopper, it just doesn't penetrate enough to do anything except piss off the assailant unless it is a contact wound.
It is also not right that with a shotgun "you can't miss"..If you have shot at targets with a shotgun you know that the pattern at typical home defense ranges (10-15) feet is only a couple of inches in diameter.
To penetrate a human body enough to "stop" a determined, or worse drug crazed attacker you need
any rifle, a moderate to large handgun, or a buckshot filled shotgun. Problem, is that will also penetrate several walls. The solution is
probably some kind of frangible bullets, which can
penetrate to a lethal level while also falling apart so that they cannot further penetrate.
The problem with birdshot is that you have a bunch
of pellets and that the energy is divided among all of those pellets. The end result is that the
individual pellets have less energy, and less penetrating power than a pellet gun...
00Buck has less penetrating power through walls than either lethal pistol or rifle rounds.
Posted by: kevin hall at October 17, 2006 01:48 PMJason Coleman:
RE: Glaser
I like the idea. But the cost is so prohibitive that they're out of the market for a reasonable round.
Of all the people I know who have Glasers in their carry guns I know _one_ who's actually shot more than 6. Most haven't shot any, due to the~$3/round price. And yes, most are loaded in auto pistols. (I personally don't consider a auto tested for less than 50 rounds of whatever ammo I'm considering, and I prefer 100)
Oh if only people were made of ballistic gelatin, they'd be so much easier to control.
In the real world, bad guy "ballistic gelatin" may be wearing a denim jacket with a shirt underneath plus a side of ribs or two beneath the surface.
Bad advice.
Posted by: Marc at October 17, 2006 01:54 PMAs a not very experienced gun person, I appreciate this discussion. Particularly the points about penetration. I never thought about ammo going through the wall and hitting an innocent. Thank God I know it now.
Posted by: Jnorr at October 17, 2006 01:57 PMI live in the country, have a beagle hound outside who has a different bark for anything that disturbs him, a 12 GA. automatic with double ought and a 30/30 lever action, both stay loaded. I pity the fool. However I have walked hundreds of miles carrying that shot gun. Sleepy or not it would be ingrained in me to push the safety and fire the shotgun. Most people unfamilar with a firearm need as simple a weapon as possible to find, handle and fire in a crisis. I would recommend a simple double action revolver 38 Cal. or above that fires simply by pulling the trigger if the chamber in front of the pin is empty because of safety reasons a person in fear of his/her life would pull it again
Posted by: old scratch at October 17, 2006 02:01 PMI agree with those sceptical of birdshot, especially ed. He hits the bullseye, so to speak, with his point that the stopping power concern is a much higher priority than the overpenetration concern.
I'll agree that a 12 gauge is usually just too big and heavy and virtually any handgun or rifle bullet will over penetrate, especially if the perp is missed. However, A .410 is just too small. A 20 gauge with an unrifled 20-inch deer slug barrel and a skeet load (i.e., lots of #8 or #9 shot) is much more sensible. I'm partial to pumps myself, mostly because they can be stored with rounds in the magazine, but not in the chamber.
Posted by: BobH at October 17, 2006 02:09 PMCoincidentally, I talked a month ago about this topic with the recently-retired county sheriff where I live. He's a former Marine and former federal law-enforcement officer agent as well.
He said that for most homeowners the .410 is ideal, but he did recommend a heavier load than bird shot (bigger than 7, I guess). I personally don't know whether they even make .410 in, say, #4.
Immediate icapacitation of an intruder (and that's what you want, why else would you shoot him?) requires one of two things: disrupting the central vervous system (i.e., head shot or severing spinal cord, that kind of thing) or massive sanguination. The latter is much less desirable, from the self-defender's point of view, because even a bullet through the heart can give the intruder time to shoot back. It's no more than 10 seconds, but there are cases where someone so shot was able to kill the shooter before losing consciousness and dying himself. Yes, rare, but how many do you want to face?
The important thing to remember, using any firearm for self defense, is that any assailant who needs to be shot once needs to be shot five times. Or six.
I have a 12-ga auto myself for home defense, but then I've got 20-plus years formal training and experience with weapons. For most homeowners a .410 with large shot and multiple-shot capability is an ecxcellent choice.
(Lawsuit? You kidding me? Check your state statutes. In my state the law says that no one attacked has any obligation to retreat and that the right to protect yourself inside your own home is absolute.)
Posted by: LE Guy at October 17, 2006 02:25 PMOh god. I just noticed that now "stopping power" and "force" just appeared in the main post.
Stopping power is a myth. One shot stops are, largely, a myth.
People die or are stopped by massive trauma and blood loss. Birdshot doesn't do that because it typically does not penetrate enough to enter the chest cavity. You should be getting 12+ inches of penetration in gel.
The 12 gauge listing at the bottom of the main post may be twice the ft/lbs of a .45 ACP round, but yet that 230 grain Hydrashok is going to penetrate 13 inches about, causing more trauma. Most of that birdshot you're going to be able to pick out with tweezers.
No penetration = no bloodloss or trauma = no real damage
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 02:43 PMThe author must be reading the wrong "expert writers" on this issue. The NRA is a good source for all these types of issues and doesn't recommend shotguns unless you are among the "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner". A shotgun or rifle go around corners in your home long before you do and can easily be taken from you by someone in hiding. A pistol (with Glaser or Mag-safe safety slugs to help prevent overpenetration) held close to your body is the way to go, preferably in a medium to large caliber, and practiced with on a reasonable basis for proficiency.
Posted by: Karl Baumgarten at October 17, 2006 02:46 PMFirst of all, who's breaking into your house? a marine? Special Forces?
You forget the MAIN description of 99% of criminals: stupid, and cowardly. Otherwise, they wouldn't be breaking into your house to steal your knick-knacks.
1-around 80% of break-in are not "hot", i.e., no one is home. Unless you catch them in the act, you're not gonna even come in contact, and your "home defense" weapon is useless.
2-Remember: stupid and cowardly. I will stake money that anyone who is breaking in, once shot at and hit with a .410 shotty with birdshot, the encounter will be loud enough and hurt enough that the stupid and cowardly criminal will be scared enough to crap his pants, and try to get the hell away very quickly. Home defense scenario over.
Like i said above, unless the criminal is very extraordinary, the noise and pain of getting shot with birdshot will NOT piss them off, but scare the holy hell out of them.
Posted by: JK at October 17, 2006 02:49 PMIf you shot me with birdshot, it would make me very mad before I killed you. Birdshot is not for shooting people. You had me nodding yes until you came up with that one.
Posted by: Pat in SSF at October 17, 2006 02:49 PMPerhaps this has been answered in the past or in one of the many comments above, but could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands? Something with some stopping power but easy and light enough to handle.
Posted by: TCL85 at October 17, 2006 02:54 PM-You made your recommendation based on facts and knowledge we don't have. I accept it.
-I've been through this a number of times. There is no one answer, no "one size fits all" response. Training is and always has been the key, backed by adequate passive defense mechanisms, e.g., locks, lights, etc.
-It is high time to replicate an article I saw many years ago about bullet and pellet penetration through typical interior stud walls & perhaps extend the testing to common exterior walls: what is the effect of insulation on shot penetration? And, no, I won't accept any government studies.
-The .410 bore is a might scrawny & doesn't give much dispersion. I'd probably only trust birdshot if fired at the face. Buck'n'ball? Slugs? But no handloads... litigation, you know. A flashlight on a .410 pump (or anything) can help but for heavens sake don't trick up the gun to make it look like something out of Star Wars.
-There are commercial "half loads" for 12 and 20 gauge that can provide reasonable alternatives.
-On the one hand, not even crooks want to get shot. Searching for adequate medical care can be difficult. On the other hand, we now have increased drug and gang related violent crime. I'm not sure an Ithaca "Roadblock" would stop a decent sized guy on PCP & we won't go into retaliations.
TCL85:
A "Lady Smith" would be not a bad choice.
http://www.womenandguns.com/wfn/ladysmith.html
Yhe S&W website has a hideous URL that I won't subect you to, but there are a number of small frame .38/.357s that would work very well.
My fiancee prefers a Colt Commander 1911 with extra-thin grips.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi at October 17, 2006 02:58 PMThe NRA is a good source for all these types of issues and doesn't recommend shotguns unless you are among the "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner".
Are we then safe in then assuming you are among the “I’ll stick my head out there and see if it gets blown off” camp?
True, you won’t have to worry about answering a district attorney’s questions (they generally don’t question those wearing toe tags, finding though experience that the vast majority of folks in that category are quite unresponsive), but it is patently unintelligent to go looking for trouble when you don’t know how many intruders there may be, or how they may be armed.
The police, the judicial system, and surviving family members prefer for you to be in "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner." Police officers are trained and equipped to clear a home suspected of being invaded. Your average civilians isn’t, no matter how many time’s he’s seen Rambo.
PAL makes some good points but misses a few.
Sure, I could spend massive amounts of money on motion detectors, alarms with monitoring, gates, window films, etc. Oh, and don't forget the cost of fixing those items too, when they break. Dogs, by the way, can cost a crap load of dough too. They eat a lot, dig up expensive bits of your house, and a trip to the vets puts you back the cost of one full firearm.
It's not my responsibility to ensure you cannot break into my house. It's your responsibility to stay out.
Posted by: Robb Allen at October 17, 2006 03:01 PMMy vote is for a snub-nose, double-action-only, .38 Special revolver, mostly because it is idiot-proof and concealable.
Posted by: Trashman at October 17, 2006 03:08 PMTLC85:
Handgun recommendations are largely worthless, outside of "this make is good, this one isn't". A person should handle, and if possible fire, a pistol to see which one feels comfortable in their hand.
Example of myself: Glocks are fantastic handguns. Very reliable and easy to use. I don't use one because they all seem to feel very wrong in my hand.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 03:09 PMI used to travel and live full time in a motorhome for 14 years. I was disturbed about the different laws regarding handguns in the U.S.
In a motorhome in some counties, a handgun in a traveling motorhome was a concealed weapon, but when you stopped it was your home and allowed.
I spoke to a NM State Police officer and he recommended that I take a shotgun, cut the barrel down so it is legal in the U.S. and Canada, 24 inches at the time and carry OO shot in it.
His idea, when you pointed it at someone, and rifled a shot into the barrel it would look 8" wide and sound like a cannon going off and anything going on would stop.
I carried this shotgun for 14 years. Never had to use it.
Posted by: Bob at October 17, 2006 03:10 PMI see a lot of disparaging comments made by people who seem to be frequent shooters. A .410 doesn't suit them.
Guys: YOU are not the target audience. The recommendation was for people who don't shoot much, if at all. They are expected not to shoot much in the future.
If they had asked for recommendations on a family car, and you were race car drivers, would you have suggested a Formula 1 race car for grocery shopping and taking the kids to school? Maybe they should step down to a simple V12 Ferrari?
Simplicity of operation and the ability to keep it loaded- if they believe their situation makes that important- are far more important than stopping power. Ask your favorite neighborhood perp: Do you want to get gut shot with a .22? How about a .410?
Remember: The vast majority of confrontations stopped by an armed victim do not involve ANY shots fired. Stopping power is irrelevant in almost all cases because no shot was fired.
Just because WE might be happier- and better off- with our favorite Formula 1 racer does not make such appropriate for non-enthusiasts.
As for over-penetration: After you puncture a perp with a 12 gauge slug which continued thru the wall and paralysed your neighbor, don't try telling the jury that over-penetration doesn't concern you. It is a serious concern for any responsible urban or suburban self-defense shooter. A slug will go thru a perp and a couple windows real easily. It will also go thru a perp and sheetrock walls and your neighbor's kid.
Are you so cool that you don't care? Tell it to the jury.
Posted by: Wudndux at October 17, 2006 03:20 PMWhile I wouldn't recommend 7 1/2's or 8’s, bird shot is more than adequate if you use something like fours. I had the experience of seeing what a 16 gauge loaded with size 6 shot would do at twelve feet. It made an inch and a quarter hole through a sheet of 3/4 plywood and penetrated the towels behind it for several inches, ruining them. Anyone who thinks that isn't sufficient needs his head examined. While the 410 would make a somewhat smaller hole, like probably 3/4 of an inch or so, how big of hole is necessary? Also remember that demonstration of the idiot and the bullet proof vest who talked a fellow into shooting him with a 44 mag in front of television cameras. The bullet didn't penetrate, but the idiot in the vest was still dead. My books say a 45 ACP has about 430 foot pounds of muzzle energy, and the 11/16 oz. load in a 410 has around 800 foot pounds. Granted that the energy drops off much quicker with birdshot, but home distances are not very long. The practical effect at close range is that the shot charge acts more like a slug than individual pellets, and three hundred grains of them traveling eleven hundred feet a second should be more than adequate. I would probably select size 4 shot. For what it’s worth, I would also select size 4 in a twelve gauge. The longest distance I could shoot in my house is nineteen feet, with most distances being less.
Posted by: Fritz at October 17, 2006 03:21 PMConfederate Yankee,
Of course not, but I don't have a phone in my bedroom and don't own a cell phone. At night, the most likely time my house might get broken into while I'm home, I'm usually in my bedroom. I have fired numerous types of weapons over the years and keep proficient with the ones I own, which doesn't currently include a shotgun. I am not a police officer and don't know how to go about clearing a home of invaders, so I'll wait the criminals out. I won't worry about a district attorney's questions, since him asking them means I survived. Your implication that this is Rambo-like is misplaced.
Are we then safe in then assuming you are among the “I’ll stick my head out there and see if it gets blown off” camp?
Hunkering down in your bedroom and calling the cops beats the hell out of clearing your house regardless of how one is armed.
Unless, of course, if you have children. In which case, at the very least, you need to be able to gather the family into a secure spot and then hunker down and wait for the police.
Again, for me, a handgun is the best choice.
Dogs are still the best...
Posted by: Wyatt at October 17, 2006 03:31 PMIf folks are concerned about killing someone, then don't buy a gun.
One of the rules of guns is that you don't point them at anyone unless you are willing to kill, period.
Posted by: TexasDude at October 17, 2006 03:33 PMGreat debate here! My recommendation re: the .410 is to use that if that's all you have, but ixnay on the birdshot...I'd load it with #4 to 00.
Manufacturers make .410 shotguns for children and people who are no longer challenged breaking clay pigeons with larger gauges. Has anybody ever seen a .410 marketed for defense from anything other than snakes? Probably a good reason for that.
Winchester made a 1300 "Lady Defender" pump in 20 gauge that would be ideal for this scenario...I've greased through many riotgun stages with mine feeling almost no recoil (except for when using slugs); I recommend a similar shotgun over the .410. It doesn't even have to be an 8-shot like the LD; four or five rounds of 20 gauge buckshot in an unplugged pump should be plenty to protect you and yours.
Posted by: Cowboy Blob at October 17, 2006 03:36 PMHi. New here; probably just a once-through. Since so many people are ragging on birdshot as being too wimpy, I read in a comment thread elsewhere that one gun owner keeps his first round non-lethal in case he makes a mistake, and it made sense to me. What if that "bump in the night" was actually your own teenager sneaking into the house after curfew? Do you really want to kill him or her by mistake with the first shot? Or visa versa, if you come home later than expected, do you want your nervous teenager putting a lethal round into you? In a dark house, it can be hard to tell who that shadowy figure really is.
I'm all for eliminating actual bad guys, but I also realize that in a dark room in my own house, I might screw up and hit a non-invader.
That's all. Nice report, Confederate Yankee.
Posted by: FL Mom at October 17, 2006 03:43 PMSo get a .410 in pump, self-loading or lever action? What length of barrell? Please advise.
Posted by: DFens at October 17, 2006 03:47 PMWudndux,
We're not saying we don't care about overpenetration - just that saving your own life is by far the first priority. Obviously there's a trade-off. I wouldn't choose a .308 for defending myself in my apartment (though I'd use it if it was all I had). However choosing bird shot over buck shot is swinging too far the other direction. If you have to fire a gun to protect your life, it's risky to choose a load that might not do that job.
Posted by: Chris at October 17, 2006 04:03 PMMany commenters favor some type of birdshot. To each his own, but, is there not a reason such loads are called "birdshot"?
Posted by: bncthor at October 17, 2006 04:10 PMIs there a difference between, for example, #4 and #12 birdshot?
Posted by: G at October 17, 2006 04:13 PMRealist Citizen said: I am soliciting suggestions for a good handgun for a woman whose hands are average sized, and has proven ability to handle high power handguns and long arms.
I hope you're not gone yet. I'd check out Cornered Cat. Google Search for her.
I believe she recommends quite a few good handguns for the ladies on her site. Also, if I remember correctly, she likes the XD-9 subcompact, which I happen to carry daily and absolutely love. My wife can handle it quite well as well.
Good luck!
Posted by: Del Simmons at October 17, 2006 04:29 PMI recently purchased a home defense gun. Here are some of the considerations I used.
I couldn't agree more regarding the 12ga. unless the only person that will shoot the gun in a relatively large male. 12 gauge is a very powerful load. They kick like hell. I'm 5'6" 250lbs. and I dislike shooting them. The only reason I would ever own one would be to hunt ducks.
Pump shotguns: as a teenager I avidly hunted squirrel mostly with a full choked 20ga. pump. In the excitement of shooting at game I would probably short-stroke the gun one out of three to one out of four times, jamming it. I've also hunted with semi-auto shotguns and they jam all the time too. I don't know about you, but for me, any type of weapon I would choose for defensive purposes CAN'T JAM; it must go bang and then be ready to fire another shot after the trigger is pulled every time.
.410s: What a .410 has going for it is that anyone can shoot it. I considered it very seriously mainly because my wife is 4'9". The birdshot angle has been covered well in the comments; the Box O' Truth does not lie! A round that is capable of barely penetrating a single gallon jug of water may not stop a drunken or coked-up or desperate intruder from harming you or your family. If you're in an apartment or some other living situation where over-penetration is a primary concern, go with the biggest bird shot you can find. Otherwise, Winchester makes .410 shells with 3-5 pellets of 00 and 000 buckshot specifically for home defense.
Handguns: they're wonderfully convenient and more difficult to take away from you than a long gun, but as the father of three small children in the house, over-penetration is NOT a trivial concern. Moreover, handguns typically require CONSTANT training to use effectively. To give you an idea, the vast majority of POLICE shootings are handgun shootings which occur at distances of seven yards are less. Even at these close distances, these PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED shooters MISS well over half the time. If I would have gone with a handgun it would have been a double action revolver of significant caliber (.38 or above) loaded with Glaser safety slugs.
Anyway, I finally went with an inexpensive Chinese made 20 gauge double barrel shotgun with exposed hammers. In 20 gauge it's felt recoil is only 55% of that of a 12 gauge.Mechanically and practically it's the epitome of simplicity: 2 barrels, two hammers, two shells and two triggers. With the exposed hammers the gun can be easily cocked, and more importantly it's status can be detected at a glance. The tradeoff is that it's possible for the hammers to get snagged on something such as the sleeves of a bulky bathrobe. Most importantly it can be safely stored loaded with the hammers down. Furthermore it's a "coach gun" model, with barrels 20" long, making it more practical to use inside of a house. If you want to see how important this is, walk around your house from room to room with four foot length of 2x4 or something similar shouldered as if it were a long gun. It's harder than you think.
Remington's SP series of coach guns are well made in Russia and are reasonably priced, but only the 12ga. is available with exposed hammers. Stoeger coach guns are lovely Brazillian made pieces available in .410, 20 and 12 gauge, again without exposed hammers.
I purchased my Chinese made gun here:
www.classicarms.us
It was the only 20ga. coach gun I could find with exposed hammers. They are also available in 12 gauge and .410.
yours/
peter.
Oops, I forgot, I keep my 20ga. double barrel loaded with #4 Buck.
yours/
peter.
The last comment by LE Guy is very much on track. Those folks concerned about stopping power do not seem to have put full thought into CK's two most important points:
1) Getting there the fastest with the mostest. The first hit immediately degrades your oppenent's capacity, and CK put a great deal of emphasis, in his contest with his friends, on that the .410 was far more effective in the situation described. With a mere second or two, it is far more important to hit the enemy than anything else. Yes, the stopping power of one shot from the other weapons mentioned are far more powerful, but what about the stopping power of a hit from a lighter shot versus the stopping power of a miss from a heavier one? Even more to the point, what is the stopping power of 2 or 3 .410 hits as opposed to the stopping power zero hits from a more powerful weapon?
2) This is a special situation. Who is the enemy, what is his intention, and what constitutes victory? Last to first: 1) Victory is when the intruder is neutralized without any damage to the defenders. 2) The intent of the intruder is either to a)rob, b) rape or other violence to the inhabitants, or c) both. 3) An intruder is by definition in this situation either a) working for material gain or b) vicious, possibly unbalanced. Both are criminals,with all the stupidity and nastiness that entails.
Will they to be deterred by a succession of hits from a .410? Almost certainly. Remember, once the first hits, you keep shooting. How likely is a person, even in this case, to stop and muse, "I say, while my flesh is being torn to pieces by a rapid succession of shotgun blasts, I can't help but notice that none of my vital organs has yet been penetrated. May as well be shooting spitballs and marshmallows. Even at that, I would excuse myself, as spending the rest of my life as a walking lump of scar tissue is a less than attractive prospect. However, that would expose me to the scornful mockery of my telephone book, an unbearable humiliation. I shall advance crazedly!"
The other commenters have been very eductional and kind to have taken the time to participate, but I think in their expertise and practice causes them to not fully value the competnece of most people in this situation.
Posted by: Joe Y at October 17, 2006 04:48 PMI quite agree, within the limits of the issue posed -- the person does not have much experience, and hence is going to beaten up by a big 12.
Most gunfights are at VERY close range. I think 5-7 ft. is the outer limit. At 6 ft., a shotgun's pellets are still in mass about 1-2" in diameter. Even birdst is going to do some serious damage. Glazer slugs are, as I recall, birdsht compressed inside a jacket. Lungs aren't 4" under the skin. A 2" hole into the lung cavity is not going to be good for health or fighting ability. Or fighting spirit -- odds are even a determined attacker (which most burglars are not) is going to go down and scream for help. And if the user has been able to practice with it, instead of getting intimidated by recoil, they're more likely to land a hit.
If more penetration is desired, they do make a .410 load with three 00 buck. Once saw a stopping power study (granted, none of those are perfect) indicating that 00 buck was about equal to a 9mm. It trades penetration for transmission of energy, but has plenty penetration to reach the boiler room. The rough equivalent of three 9mms hitting in a 2" circle will probably be rather convincing.
Posted by: Dave Hardy at October 17, 2006 04:58 PMEverbody has their favorite...here's mine. A 250,000 volt handheld stungun. If the badguy has a gun, I'm already dead. If I get close enough to touch him...zap...he's done. Hit me, choke me, go ahead...he'll be close enough to zap. Never goes thru a wall, but it damn well WILL go thru anything he's wearing. It cold...he has a jacket on...a .410 does nothing. But 250,000 volts will put him down until the police come. And if he starts to get up again...zap...he down again. Anybody can use it, and there's no flash or noise. Women, children or the weak can handle it with ease. And if it's taken during a breakin, it can't be used to rob a bank. But that's just my opinion. thanks...tnv
Posted by: thom at October 17, 2006 05:33 PMLet's see now, from Remington specs,
.45 ACP 230gr jacketed @ 830fps = 351 ft/lbs
.367 Mag 158gr softnose @ 1235fps = 535 ft/lbs
.410 1/2 oz #6 Birdshot @ 1200fps = 699 ft/lbs
I remember when Rich Davis came out with "Second Chance" body armor, and used to shoot himself in the chest with a .357, then jump up off the ground where the pistol had knocked him, and shoot some bowling pins off a table downrange. Even with some shot spread at 8-10 feet the goblin is going to receive a significant blow and since the lead won't blow through, all the energy will be transfered and not expended upon subsequent walls or personages.
It will ruin his whole day.
Hey guys, I'm new here. Some interesting ideas
and comments. I was lucky and got grow up with
assorted petty criminals. To a man, almost all
or any would crap their pants if you just showed
them the barrel of a 22. Ever fire a 357 inside
a house? Don't do it. All of a sudden you are
blind and deaf. Your ears will ring for quite
some time. A 20 or 410 with a short barrel sounds
like a good idea. At in the house distance the plastic wad would still be holding the shot, no?
I know for a fact my wife can't handle a 12 even
with birdshot. A 410 maybee, don't know, as I don't have one. She can handle a 1911 pretty good
even with her small hands. Would I want to be near her if she had the 45, hell no. I'd hit the
deck. The intruder would get blown to pieces.
I think a SW19 in 38 would be a good size for a
woman as there smaller. The 38 is not to hard to
control and won't blow your eardrums out if you
have to use it.
Above all else. train, train, train.
Learn to use what you have. Don't wait till the
TSHTF. A Thompson would be my idea of a house gun.
K
I gotta weigh in on this one....
As a current military member and a former repo agent etc. I want a short barrled (18-24in) .410 for home and car defense. Load 'er up with BB shot (steel) and let the bad guys come. In a car? It will shoot through the door and cause a "carjacker" a very bad day. I HAVE seen the results! It wasn't pretty.
In a house? Imagine getting hit by a BB gun at about 1000 FPS in a room. Just use your average sized bedroom--11x12ft. Pump up your pellet gun and let rip at a "phone book" in that range. Will it penetrate 9 inches? NOPE! Who cares? That 3-4 inches it does when compared with a chest cavity is plenty. Bad guy falls down--DEAD! If not dead? Looking for the nearest way to get the heck out a there. Especially if there are more rounds coming!
Posted by: Jamie at October 17, 2006 06:20 PMI would agree with Ol' Painless over at the Box O' Truth. Birdshot is for birds. If a 12 gauge is too much gun, by all means, use a 20 gauge or a .410, but don't go below #4 shot. Check out B O'T, it's a hoot. Here's a link to the specific article:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Posted by: Darrell at October 17, 2006 06:32 PMI have to add I have almost all of the mentioned weapons in this post.
What is my "bedside" weapon?
A pistol gripped, 18 inch, double barreled .410 with BB shot....
Posted by: Jamie at October 17, 2006 06:36 PM
I have dug out BB's, 22 pellets out of my own
self before. They hurt like hell.
Something else to consider about "bad guys"
Most times their all posture. Not always, but
most times. Given the chance, when having to face
a motivated and armed opponent, they head for
safety. Like in run away and cry to mama. If
your line of work is not to safe, keep weapons
handy. A 6" bowie on the seat next to you. A 1911 in reach. Attitude helps to, as a cool head.
Carry under a bath towel on the seat. Won't draw
looks from anyone. Just looks like a stupid bath
towel. Put a Thomas guide on top and yer good to
go.
A couple on here talked about K9's.
A very good first line of defense. Also a very
good alert system. G.sheps are really good at this. I have two of them. They also make great
family pets. OK, you have to feed/pay them or
they might go on strike. They work 24/7 cheap.
If you take care of them, the vet. bills are
only routine shots and checkups. And they love
you all the time. Even when your in a shitty
mood. Pretty hard to beat that.
A .410 ga. can be suitable as self defense, BUT
NOT WITH BIRDSHOT !
My very first shooting call many years ag0 ( mid 70's) involved a man shot in the abdomen at about three feet while breaking into an apartment. Only
a screen door was between him and the muzzle.
The gun was loaded with 7 1/2 birdshot. It penetrated the screen, his T shirt, and about
three inches into the abdomen. It did succeed in stopping him- but had it hit a shoulder or other less vital area I am not sure it would have.
He was still setting up and talking when the ambulance took him away.
From later experiments I found that a heavy leather or wool coat would reduce the penetration
by at least half. This is not good, especially if the subject is a bit high already and less then normally sensitive to pain.
A youth model shotgun in 20 gauge is a more reliable stopper, with more choices of ammunition,
and loaded with #4 buck is a good choice for stopping without excessive penetration.
Nothing is ever "perfect" for all situations/ users, etc.
(Someone above asked if there was a difference in
#12 birdshot vs. some other size. Yes! Birdshot
normally runs from #2 to #9 with the larger number being a SMALLER shot pellet, but more of them. #11 or #12 is "dust" shot and useless for much beyond trick indoor shooting . Hope this helps.)(Buck shot runs from #4 -smallest- to
triple ought or 000- largest- and is all larger than any of the "birdshot" loads.)
I do a little police work, have for many years. When my daughter went off to college she took her 20 gauge (that I gave her for her 16th birthday) and put it under her bed. She knows how and when to use it. For me? G21C with a laser max. A very nice weapon for ME. The choice is, as you say, an individual evaluation/decision.
Nice pots.
Posted by: jeff leflore at October 17, 2006 07:47 PMWudndux;
I don't see disparaging comments about the 410.
I see disparaging comments about birdshot. If someone is trying to kill you, under penetration is an orders of magnatude bigger problem than over penetration. Choosing to arm yourself with a gun/load incapable of reaching the vital organs of an assailant at the longest range you might need to fire is a bad idea. That means birdshot is a bad idea. Unless you've been contemplating using a .50 cal. Barrett, or you live in a tent city, pick the gun you like with reasonable power and don't worry about over penetration.
Folks who are obsessing about all the bad things that might happen if they actually confront a home invader should probably forget about a gun and just have a plan to jump out the window and run away.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 08:20 PMQuite a stir! The truth is, and MOST important, it is not what you shoot as HOW you shoot. Elephants have been killed with a .22 LR as well as the .700 nitro express. I know which one I'd rather use but one critical hit with a .410 w/#6's is deadly at short ranges.
Also, at the range CY listed (5 to 7 yards), there is little time for the shot to pattern more than a solid mass. Don't forget, as Gen. Hatcher pointed out years ago, there is considerable high pressure gas from the propellant that will penetrate the wound and do as much if not more tissue damage than the #6 shot.
Read Hatcher's writings and practice you aim.
Ah, the usual debate.
The real answer is "Use what you feel comfortable with."
I know a lot of folks don't much care for birdshot, but the BEST home defense weapon is the ONE YOU CAN HIT THINGS WITH.
Touching off a 5oo Magnum won't do much good if you miss every time - or are too scared of the blast to even pull the trigger.
I agree that one should make sure that whatever ammunition one is using is sufficiently lethal, but beyond that, user comfort is more important than ballistic performance.
Posted by: Posse Incitatus at October 17, 2006 08:48 PMRealist Citizen -
Have a look at the Taurus PT-145 Millenium Pro - it fits my smaller man hands very well, great size for CC and 10+1 of .45 ACP.
Shoots like a dream and has far less "kick" than you'd think from such a small-framed polymer (mine has a SS slide) handgun.
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-PT145.htm
Good luck!
Posted by: Wrath at October 17, 2006 08:48 PMMy choice would be an 8mm auto. A shotgun takes to much time to grab, bring to hip (assuming that there is no time to bring it to shoulder) and fire. There is also the question of securing the shotgun and its ammo from the kiddies. An 8mm auto is more easily secured and is quickly loaded by a pre-stocked clip. Like the .410 gauge shotgun, an 8mm has advantages of operational control over its bigger bore brothers. If you are arthritic, try firing off a few 9mm or M1911 rounds from a semi-crouched position (again assuming little time available for a good stance). Your hands may not hurt all that much, but you will probably be off target. If you are elderly or severely arthritic, you might even drop the gun. An 8mm auto has far less recoil while still having good stopping power. Don't even try this with an 8mm or a .32 caliber revolver. The trigger pull will cause the same aim and/or drop hazard as a higher caliber auto. Moreover, the slower rate of fire for a revolver is probably a disadvantage in any close-quarter firefight.
Lastly, a better home defense system is to have not one but two dogs. A German Shepherd, Rottweiler, or Mastiff will make short work of most burglars. However, have a yappy terrier, too. Mine wakes up and barks when strangers (and friends) walk too close to the house. A yappy wire fox will discourage more burglars than your shepherd will ever chomp.
chsw
Posted by: chsw at October 17, 2006 09:22 PMInteresting thread, lots of good ideas.
My ideas. I live in the country.
Average Deputy Sheriff response time is 45 minutes.
1. I haven't "invasion proofed" my house, but all doors are always locked.
2. "Many" people out here have guns. Cuts down on "perps" and their "ideas".
3. My first line of defense is my Lab mix "Sally". She is ALWAYS near me.
She sleeps on her rug by my bed, floor-level window open a bit for "sound/smell".
Unfortunately, she sometimes "alerts" on coyotes sniffing around the place.
I'll live with that in return for her "always on duty" service.
4. I keep my cell phone "on" at night. 911 is programmed. "You'all come on out and clean up the mess".
5. Gun choice is not relevant if I'm not awake and alert enough to use it.
6. I keep a 9 mm. Beretta 92 by the bed.
Yes, I know this is a "mouse-gun" caliber,
but I KNOW how to use it, forwards, backwards, sideways, and half-asleep.
And, after the first 16 shots of Rem. Golden Saber hollow-points, the next mag is "handy".
If those can't "do it", I'd guess I'm in REAL BIG trouble. {:^)
Your mileage may vary, but "comfort level" is what counts.
P.S.
As a kid, age 7-14 I used a .410 single-shot for duck hunting.
And, bagged quite a few. This is "tough shooting".
Then I got a Win. 1912 12 gauge pump. Had to let the ducks "get out a ways" to have something to eat.
And, I have seen what .410 "slugs" can do to a garbage dump refrigerator.
They WILL STOP a perp.
My father's Win. Model 1897 12 gauge pump and my great uncle's Rem. Model 37 16 gauge pump are locked in my gun cabinet.
Nice guns, but too unwieldy to use on a "wake-up" call from my dog.
could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands?
I know a lot of people will bitch about this as being a wimpy recommendaiton, but a Walther .32 PP would be light, controllable, and loaded with Silvertips can do the job.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 09:52 PMRe; Confederate Yankee's Updates.
The 410 with #4 shot makes more sense than the #6-#9 I usually think of as birdshot at the ranges specified. I'd just point out that a lot of serious people would consider the "up to" six inches as on the shallow side, especially with the possibility of shoulder bones, breast bones, leather jackets etc. getting in the way. Depending on your home, you may need to shoot beyond the 3-5 yard average as well.
I personally think the concerns about too much penetration are way over blown.
MANY YEARS AGO, I discovered that 12 ga. Fiocchi 00 buck, fired from an 18.5 inch Mossberg 500 at a range of about 2 yards, would not penetrate the genuine plaster wall of my circa 1950 house. I don't know what all is in that wall (other than those 9 pellets and the DAP I used to patch it up), but they didn't come out the other side. I don't remember any "flash bang" effect, but I may have been immunized against it by the "Jack Daniels" effect I was experiencing at the time.
Anyhow, I've enjoyed this thread and appreciate that you don't need an XM-2006-Gazooka with a 90 round mag for a house gun. I just remain skeptical about the birdshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 10:04 PM"could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands?"
"I know a lot of people will bitch about this as being a wimpy recommendaiton, but a Walther .32 PP would be light, controllable, and loaded with Silvertips can do the job."
Posted by Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 09:52 PM
Not a bad suggestion, but how about a .32 Beretta Tomcat ?
I have one, just for fun, not for "real defense".
But, its "tilt barrel" load/unload feature is a real plus for "small hands" (read "weak").
It eliminates the "blowback" spring problem in chambering/unchambering a round. And, makes it very easy to "check" its "status".
And, if you aren't after "total stopping power",
this is certainly a "pocket or purse" pistol.
And, yes, mine has "Silvertips", thank you. {:^)
This post is funny as shit - it really brings the crazies out of the woodwork. So I'll put my 2 cents in as well. If someone breaks into my house, then they'll probably break their neck on my kids toys on the floor. If that doesn't work, then I'll flip on the light switch and yell, "what the f*** are you doing in here?!". Lastly, I will have my light 20ga bird gun loaded with bird shot ready.
A more manueverable, low penetrating option would be a .22 long-rifle handgun loaded with alternating solid points (for penetration) and hollow points (for knock down). Now I'm starting to scare myself.
Posted by: Jim at October 17, 2006 10:58 PMThere is nothing more scary for a burgular or prowler in the dark than hearing someone jack a shell in the chamber of a 12 Ga pump. I'm partial to a small 20 Ga double barrel for the home, stick it in someone face and watch them change colors. For the vehicle I carry a 9MM semi auto with 3 15 roung clips. May have to assist the police in a shootout some day. Like my 75 YO neighbor said, 'if they break in my house they'd better not let me reach back to scratch my a**'. He keeps a 357 in the side of his recliner between the arm and the cushion. With the liberals nipping at the door for a lot of offices it's more important than ever to be well armed. Terrorists will be in the streets soon.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 17, 2006 11:12 PMIs anyone that believes that a 410 with birdshot wouldn't deter a home invader willing to jump in front of my Mossberg? Have you ever seen the fire that comes out of a shotgun barrel at night? If you think that a burgler that is looking down the business end of a 410 that is being fired at him won't be motivated to get the F**k out of your house, you are sadly mistaken. When you start firing he'll be running, guaranteed. I know from experience!
JM
Posted by: JM at October 17, 2006 11:14 PMThat being said, (which I acknowledge as being subject to debate) my general recommendation for the new/infrequent/non shooter looking for a home defense weapon is a pistol caliber autoloading carbine. Much easier to master than a handgun, not as problematic as a heavybore shotgun, and usually at least as, if not a bit more effective than a handgun in terms of power.
Any opinions on the Marlin 1894C for home defense? (and there's a Winchester equivalent though I think it's out of production now). I have two .357s (Rossi and Taurus) and like the idea of one round for everything.
Posted by: Christopher Fotos at October 17, 2006 11:33 PMJM;
You're probably right on all your points MOST of the time, but playing devil's advocate for the fun of it; How much fire comes out of your 410 at two in the afternoon on a bright sunny day?
Looking down the business end of your 410 might motivate him to run like hell and mess his pants at the same time, but what if it motivates him to shoot you ten or twelve times with the Glock he's got in his hand?
Nothing is guaranteed. Cops run into guys all the time who, even though they are out numbered and out gunned, stand there and blast away until they get killed. One of the reasons the bad guys get killed more often than the cops is because the cops don't carry 410s with birdshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 11:53 PMIf someone breaks into my house, then they'll probably break their neck on my kids toys on the floor.
I heard that. And he better not be barefoot: Legos. OW OW OW OW OW!
If that doesn't work, then I'll flip on the light switch and yell, "what the f*** are you doing in here?!". Lastly, I will have my light 20ga bird gun loaded with bird shot ready.
In my house he's going to get "Run or I'll shoot!"
He'd better run.
yours/
peter.
Deterrence is well and good, but if deterrence was the end of the conversation we'd all be keeping convincing replicas in our homes rather than actual firearms. We don't do that, because if the deterrent effect fails, the weapon still needs to be capable of handling the situation.
While I sympathize with those who feel that underpenetration is more of a problem than overpenetration, this is another area where the person actually selecting the gun needs to evaluate his own situation. If you're living in a large house, or are well away from your nearest neighbors, it's okay to err a little more on the side of overpenetration. On the other hand, if you live in a thin-walled apartment building, where you may well be surrounded on three sides by noncombatants, it might be wiser to sacrifice some penetration ability in the name of avoiding risk to your neighbors.
Posted by: cwp at October 18, 2006 01:55 AMInteresting read. I was just wondering, what percentage of American burglars are actually armed? Does anybody know? Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 18, 2006 08:44 AMBirdshot? HAH!
Rifle or revolver, get a BB gun of the same type, practice with that, once a month. Won't help with recoil issues, but if you have a big enough gun, there are no recoil issues.
Shoot a guy once, then wait to see if you need to shoot him again? ONLY IF THERE IS MORE THAN ONE. Otherwise, empty the thing into him, looks better in court, you were feared for your life.
I use a 38 auto, hollow point, two clips of five. But thats for me, anyone else I would say get a revolver. I tell my friends to shoot close, real close, preferably with the gun pointing up into the neck of the intruder, if it gets that far. Don't aim with the gun held out in front of you, until you know that they are far enough away, they will just bat it away if they are close enough. You can't predict what an intruder will do any more than you can predict which way a deer will jump on a road. I hold my gun with my right hand, close in, my left hand is out in front to block, until I can see who is where.
But the main thing is the BB gun, you can use that in an apartment.
Posted by: xiaoding at October 18, 2006 09:01 AMFor a first-time gun owner, planning to use the weapon for self-defence, and with young children in the house, what's your recommended solution for securing the weapon, while maintaining emergency availablity?
Posted by: Eric J at October 18, 2006 09:40 AMKarl,
Like others have stated, at close range (as in inside a house) the 410 impact is much more concentrated compared with shooting birds in a field. The concentration of pellets is much greater. How well could you aim and shoot a Glock with a face full of bird shot. Take a look at the actual spread pattern of a 410 at close range. If you are on the receiving end it isn't pretty. At longer range such as outdoors you may as well be shooting a high powered bb gun at someone. Even a large caliber weapon may not stop a drug hyped intruder. When I'm out of town my wife relies on our dogs and a portable chemical fire extinguisher by the bed for protection. It may sound silly but it would be very difficult to continue a home intrusion when you have a face / eyes full of chemical agent and two cattle dogs are dragging you around by your ankles. The bottom line is this is home defense, you're not hunting or going to war. If your are an experienced shooter then the larger caliber guns are fine. I have a 12 gauge riot shotgun as well as the 410. But my Mossberg home defense 410 is much easier to handle and use indoors. By the way I've practiced with both in the confined area of an old house about to be demoed. I was a 12 gauge junky till I tried a friends Mossberg. Your milage may vary, but most of the people that get guns for home defense aren't at the range every weekend. And a 12 gauge is alot of shotgun. Pistols take practice and when someone is in a panic with an intruder you want to get the intruder to feel much safer outside your house than inside with you blazing away with a shotgun, regardless of caliber.
JM
Posted by: JM at October 18, 2006 09:49 AMGreat to see so many great ideas being put forward! I agree mostly with Dan_P, simply because his situation closely resembles my own, "Country Living".
First Line of Defense: 3 each 50+ pound outside-only dogs. Knowing these dogs and reading their calls lets me know exactly how to respond to a situation even before I get out of bed.
Second Line of Defense: 1 vicious Rat Terrier inside the home. She has bitten before & will gladly bite again, raising hell the whole time.
Third Line of Defense: I keep a variety of weapons handy, from a .22 and .410 all the way up to a Mossberg M500 with 18.5" barrel & pistol grip for man-sized targets.
As mentioned above, the concussion from this beast is extreme, but I figure I shouldn't need more than 1 shot as the recipient of the blast will be in MUCH worse shape than me being deaf and half-blind.
Posted by: TxMarko at October 18, 2006 02:40 PM
This is a great discussion. Yipyap dogs are great, and for now, that's all I have (They don't belong to me-I'm a Lab man). I once owned a Lab that had a growl so low that he probably scared himself when he used it. (I think someone actually makes a recording of a sinister growl that you can buy?) To me, a big, noisy dog is the best alert (besides geese). With a big dog with cajones, the dog can sense fear, and the growl or bark they make will tell you whether to arm up or go see your friend that just drove up.
As far as firearms? I'm lucky and single, so I can keep my M9 on my nightstand, and my 12.ga bird gun up in the corner. I ain't worried about 12 gauge birdshot vs. buckshot at 15 ft..
No one has mentioned SureFire or other tactical flashlights: I like those things, and if you've ever had one shined in your face at night, they DO make you turn away. That could be enough by itself, but you do give up your position, so doing so is probably not a good idea unless you have lead to back it up.
Nobody has mentioned the Beretta Storm yet. I think they look cool, I'm not worried about walls and kids and such, and am looking for a reason to purchase one (in .45 or maybe .40, mounted tactical light, laser or maybe holosight)... Since nobody has mentioned this weapon, what would be the disadvanteges vs. a shotgun in a driveway or house?
bullfrog
Posted by: bullfrog at October 18, 2006 04:46 PMFor a first-time gun owner, planning to use the weapon for self-defence, and with young children in the house, what's your recommended solution for securing the weapon, while maintaining emergency availablity?
Small children in the house? Two words: gun safe. Preferably one with an electronic keypad, most of which will deactivate if the wrong combination is entered three times in a row.
Yes they are expensive. My children's safety is worth it. I'm sure yours' is too.
yours/
peter.
I think it should be said that a few years ago here in Atlanta a young lady (Sarah Tokars)was killed in front of her two young children by two men hired to kill her by her husband (Fred Tokars)
The murder weapon used was a short .410 shotgun similar to a model called the snake charmer, The children Identified the weapon by describing it as a Pirate pistol. They were kidnapped in their driveway and taken to a quiet location. The Sarah was shot when she refused to leave her children in the car. she was shot in her Car's front seat.
The lady was struck at close range in the head by "birdshot" and died instantly.
Let's not blow up too much about macho bull shi'ite "I can take a shot and beat your a$$ afterwards" If you are shot by any gunpowder powered projectiles Bubba, you will be injured, possibly severly and you could even Die.
Unless of course your Rambo or some other hollywood hero.
Bullfrog
I think you'll find the storm is pricey compared to a shotgun. But, it sure is a nice looking weapon. They even have wallpaper so you can drool on your keyboard. I'd love to have an FN FAL but my toy budget isn't lottery driven.
JM
Posted by: JM at October 18, 2006 10:34 PMJM;
What I and a bunch of others here have been saying is not for or against a particular firearm or chambering, but against using birdshot for self defense.
As I said above, I think a 410 is a viable self defense long gun with the rifled slug or the buckshot.
Most people think penetration is an important consideration in choosing a gun/load for self defense. If you don't, you don't. If you do, check it out for yourself, like I did. At point blank range birdshot acts like a slug and would be devastating. at a mere 15 feet, penetration is very shallow, inferior to 25acp or 22 short fired from a pistol. If you check it out, you'll be suprised how close to the muzzle birdshot ( I was testing #6 from a 16 ga., cylinder bore) fails to penetrate worth squat.
Posted by: Karl at October 18, 2006 11:42 PMThe big thing many of you are ignoring is that there was ZERO training in the example that CY gave - these people were unpracticed, untrained, and probably unsafe as hell. The solution he gave fit THEM. There is *NO* one size fits all solution. You can go on and on about tactical usage, but in the hand of an untrained scared and uncertain civilian, your tactical "expert" solution is just so much horsecrap and unsuable, and woudl either get them or the kids in the next room killed or injured.
Unlike you (or me for that matter), my wife had to defend herself in our home when I was away - shed used #8 shot in a 20ga pump, and it worked (although I do admit to keeping it loaded with 8, and a slug alternating because I had doubts too about the stopign power).
15 foot living room, attacker coming at her in the dark. She was untrained and stupidly told the guy to Freeze (like on TV, agh!) so naturally he wheeled and charged her. Shot was at 7 feet or so per the police reports. And he was dead when he hit the ground. Proud of her - center mass shot, knocked him down and back and stopped his heart; 165 pound male intruder (crack head).
So Karl and others, kiss my wife's ass - she's alive and proof - you go on shooting phone books and shooting BS here.
Ironic thing is we moved out of that neighborhood shortly thereafter, and now our kids are grown out out on their own (one just got back from Afghanistan), so the whole reason for worrying about overpenetration is gone anyways.
But that being said, I do agree that if they are willing to be trained and practice regularly, there are better solutions, and the handgun is optimal in a house. My wife found out the value of a good firearm (after being a bit opposed to them), and I've had no trouble getting her to the range on a monthly basis all these years since, and she & her Glock23 are smooth (Silvertips); she double taps instinctively and gets the second shot grouped well at home defense ranges. In untrained hands and thin walls, a 20ga with #8 is plenty good - and probably the best solution for someone that isnt going to invest the time and effort until after the fact. As for my personal take I believe a pistol in well trained hands beats a shotgun (or any other longarm) with any load on any day inside a dark house. The right answer for CY was to get the coupel a 20ga and #8 and slugs, show them how to laod it, and get a commitment from them to COME BACK and get trained properly - and then sell them a proper handgun.
The big thing many of you are ignoring is that there was ZERO training in the example that CY gave - these people were unpracticed, untrained, and probably unsafe as hell. The solution he gave fit THEM. There is *NO* one size fits all solution. You can go on and on about tactical usage, but in the hand of an untrained scared and uncertain civilian, your tactical "expert" solution is just so much horsecrap and unsuable, and woudl either get them or the kids in the next room killed or injured.
Unlike you (or me for that matter), my wife had to defend herself in our home when I was away - shed used #8 shot in a 20ga pump, and it worked (although I do admit to keeping it loaded with 8, and a slug alternating because I had doubts too about the stopign power).
15 foot living room, attacker coming at her in the dark. She was untrained and stupidly told the guy to Freeze (like on TV, agh!) so naturally he wheeled and charged her. Shot was at 7 feet or so per the police reports. And he was dead when he hit the ground. Proud of her - center mass shot, knocked him down and back and stopped his heart; 165 pound male intruder (crack head).
So Karl and others, kiss my wife's ass - she's alive and proof - you go on shooting phone books and shooting BS here.
Ironic thing is we moved out of that neighborhood shortly thereafter, and now our kids are grown out out on their own (one just got back from Afghanistan), so the whole reason for worrying about overpenetration is gone anyways.
But that being said, I do agree that if they are willing to be trained and practice regularly, there are better solutions, and the handgun is optimal in a house. My wife found out the value of a good firearm (after being a bit opposed to them), and I've had no trouble getting her to the range on a monthly basis all these years since, and she & her Glock23 are smooth (Silvertips); she double taps instinctively and gets the second shot grouped well at home defense ranges. In untrained hands and thin walls, a 20ga with #8 is plenty good - and probably the best solution for someone that isnt going to invest the time and effort until after the fact. As for my personal take I believe a pistol in well trained hands beats a shotgun (or any other longarm) with any load on any day inside a dark house. The right answer for CY was to get the coupel a 20ga and #8 and slugs, show them how to laod it, and get a commitment from them to COME BACK and get trained properly - and then sell them a proper handgun.
WA
Do you actually read the posts before you respond to them? Do you imagine It takes a lot more "training" to pull the trigger on a 20 ga. loaded with buckshot than a 20 ga. loaded with #8s?
I'm glad your wife prevailed, but anecdotes don't prove much. Lots of people havw defended themselves with claw hammers, pots and pans, sharp sticks etc. As for kissing your wife's ass, I appreciate the invite, but I'm not into that menage a trois stuff.
Posted by: Karl at October 19, 2006 03:22 PMOk, so I skipped thru some of the posts so I may be reinerating what others have said.
First, I love the idea of a 410, smaller yet quite effective, and my girlfriend would not shy away from practicing with it al all.
Birdshot though, I would have to pass. I have read to many stories of homeowners losing everything to intruders that they only wounded. With our liberal courts protecting the scum more and more, the likelyhood of having to pay out to some a$$hole that broke into your home is getting higher. So why would you want to let them survive the encounter? You may just loose everything your trying to protect.
Has anyone ever heard of Glaser Safety Slugs?
They come in many calibers and most will not penatrate drywall, yet they will do serious damage to a body. Safe, yet curiously deadly.
