I always wonder about the wingnut gun fantasy on display here. If the gummint really does go fascist and Obama signs the US over to the UN (just guessing I'm not sure how this supposedly works), then the UN solders come to your city, and you are planning resistance to them, then I assume you are going to come out of your little bunker firing your semi-auto pop gun, then the Apache that is with the UN troops (the US military cooperates with them, I assume) fires a hellfire missile at your house and you vanish along with your basement full of cheetos and Guns & Ammo mags. Is that how this works? Makes no sense to me.

And no doubt toyboat will be pointing out who in his neighborhood owns guns. Maybe he'll get double ration points. That ought to keep him happy until it's his turn.

toyboat, I am not worried about UN soldiers. I'll take Joe the Plumber over the Belgian army any day. I am also not worried about the US military firing on US civilians. They won't and Barry knows that.

That's must be what the Civilian Defense Force is for.

No Steve, I'm just saying what the hell good does it do you to have any kind of handgun or any commercially available firearm at all? I'll even spot you a real-live M-60, an honest to gawd machine gun! WTF are you going to do against the UN/US goverment, or whatever weird fantasy hybrid of the two? If that really came to pass, I guess you die with a gun in your hand? Go out in a blaze of glory?
I guess the wingnut scenario is the definition of "self-righteous suicide."
I tease the wingers, but I really don't get this. If the scenarios I have heard (antichrist, UN takeover, use of US military inside US) really come to pass, no amount of guns or bullets is going to help you. Even small town SWAT uses armored vehicles, an M60 is useless against them. I guess logic just can't penetrate this fantasy.

A hand gun is great for driving off theft and rape minded home invaders ... Obama supporting laws that make you a criminal for protecting your family in this way, not so great.

The explanation you are looking for toyboat on your 'what if' nightmare scenario if it actually does take place is this: there will millions of Americans in open rebellion against that 'current' government. That rebellion will be based upon this line from the Declaration of Independence:

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

That's MILLIONS of your fellow countrymen/women. Even a hypothetically vaunted US/UN government could not and would not act in the way you suggest.

I never though I'd even consider purchasing a gun...but I am.

I've always believed in a person's right to own firearms for hunting and/or protection, but it just isn't something I ever wanted to own.

But something about this election (beside the obvious things) has got to me. I wonder if this election has ushered in the beginning of the end of our rights.

I surely hope not, but it could be. And we all need to exercise and value those rights, no matter what happens to them.

Plus, I'm just plain scared. I don't wanna be a fear-monger...but dangit, I'm kinda scared! If push comes to shove...I'd like to know I can defend myself.

~T the D
http://thedrunkelephant.blogspot.com/

toyboat and others like him would still bow before King George, while professing how glad they were to be second-class citizens instead of outright slaves.

Others in the colonies, however - less than 10-percent of the population - thought that freedom was more important that mere survival, and armed with little more than the small arms of the day, they began a rebellion against the most powerful and feared military force that the world knew at the time.

Unless our public schools have completely failed you know how that ragtag militia of civilians fared, and that the culture of rebels they established became the greatest force for protecting individual freedom and human rights this world has ever known.

Of course, a more practical explanation may be in order.

toyboat first makes the assumption that the U.S. military would unquestioningly side with the government in a conflict against U.S. civilians. I strongly doubt that this would occur. U.S. Army leaders in training at West Point are taught to be loyal to "duty, honor and country," in that order. That would demand they first protect their fellow citizens against an abusive government, not become part of it.

But nor do I think all military units would abandon a corrupt central government, so let's assume some military units would side with the government, and some would side with the patriots.

If neither side establishes clear military dominance, and economic, demographic, and other factors are roughly equal, then the side that has more popular support and more asymmetrical war-fighting capability typically wins.

How big of an influence could civilian gun owners play?

There are around 3 million members of the U.S. military if you include active duty, guard, and reserve forces. Only a small fraction of these are frontline combat troops. Until someone provides me with a better estimate, I'll guess that there are less than 800,000 trigger-pullers or those that could easily be converted to that role.

If just 40% of the U.S. population owns firearms that is 120 million American gun owners (this is though to be a low estimate). If even a substantial minority of American gun owners - say 2-3 percent - were to actively join a conflict as irregulars, then it would effectively add 2.4 million-3.6 million low-level combatants to the mix and significantly influence a conflict.

Presumably, you can grasp the significance of this?

Toyboat just called gun owners "Wingnuts".

That's a quotable one. So acording to Liberal logic, if you own a gun then you must be a "wingnut".(his words) No exceptions.

Therefore all the people that are not actually "wingnuts" (which is almost everyone), must relinquish all their weapons?

You might want to recheck your compass. US Forces take an Oath to the Constitution. The last time I checked, mass murder was against the UCMJ. You forgot that. BBZZZZZTTT. You lose. Thanks for playing.

The hope that an Obama Led US/UN troops wiping out the US populace is sure a weird Liberal fantasy. Although you want it to happen, I sure don't.

I know a lot of Liberals, and they haven't voiced this position yet. One Toyboat is just a crazy Liberal. But more will make it a trend.

Well, I bought a rifle on the 5th of the month. It is actually a purchase I have been contemplating for some time but didn't have the money - the funds were available at the same time that I decided that if I was going to get one the sooner the better, and the auction was ending that day. It is a SMLE, an old design but with a stellar record for reliability, rate of fire, and reasonable accuracy - the queen of bolt-action battle rifles.

I am thinking of scenarios ranging from home defence to retaking a neighborhood from rioting thugs in the absence of effective government intervention (think Rodney King riots...), not shooting at government troops. Not really expecting any of these, but I was a Boy Scout once.

toyboat and any outher leftnut go rent the move Red Dawn and you will see exactly how it will play out

Liberals hated Operation Red Dawn.

Besides Toyboat not 'getting it' is the fact that IF things go into depression era meltdown, the criminality that we can expect will be FAR beyond the 'norm' that was seen in the 1920-1930 era. The main reason de'etre for this is a self inflicted wound of removing religion from the public arena. Nowadays, because G*d and Religion have been expunged from the public view, the criminals nowadays have an exceptional visciousness that has never been seen before. I call it the "Columbine Generation." Many kids raised sans parents, sans G*d, and sans a solid moral background make for some true to life "Natural Born Killers." Even some of my bros in uniform over in Iraq stated that they felt 'nothing but recoil' when pulling the trigger... this means that if we face a depression style era like the 1929 crash and the subsequent follow up, we can expect a particularly vicious breed of criminal and well armed one for that matter, and may even have governmant training as well in a worst case scenario.

I think the whole UN takeover senario is a fantasy. The reality is that if Obama and the libs in Congress have their way, owning and possessing firearms and ammo is going to get difficult...and damned expensive. I've been to 2 gunshows and people were buying guns and ammo at a frenetic pace. Taxes on ammo (even 10 cents each) would discourage most people. People are buying powder, shot, shells and reloading equipment too. The deal will be: It ain't illegal, but we'll put enough taxes and regs on it to make it difficult. I figure that a year from now, I can sell a gun I buy today for much more than I paid for it. Ammo too. And if not, no problem, I like to shoot. I'm not worried about holding off the UN army. That's just BS.

Well, CY: the good news is, that particular weapon is even more affordable at GunBroker.com. :)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=115273513

Gee, Gustav, that is so reassuring, especially since, apart from the first statement, I wasn't worried about those things to begin with and no one here has made a contrary statement.

As for your second suggestion, I might suggest that a good doctor and/or therapist might be able to cure your love of Obama. Wise and well balanced people don't fall for cults of personality as a general rule...

Toyboat really likes the Apache vs. Glock fantasy, I see. Lots of assumptions and ignorance inherent to said fantasy, though. As Mike Vanderboegh points out...
"...artillery and nuclear bombs are of limited utility to a government when the battlefield is its own cities, towns, transportation hubs and commercial centers. Then it becomes like Iraq, only far worse. It becomes a rat hunt where the rats outnumber you, and often, at the point of decision, beat you in the one thing that is most fundamental in an up-close infantry fight: rapid and deadly accurate rifle fire. Shouting Borg-like that "resistance is futile" may scare the faint-hearted, the weak-minded and certain children under the age of ten. It does NOT scare us."
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/05/guest-editorial-resistance-is-futile.html

Toyboat is one of those who will give up their freedom willingly in order to remain safe for a little while longer. If anything really serious were to occur, all the toyboats in the world would become either irrelevant or informers.

But, as tonto said so well, taxing firearms so much that people willingly disarm is much more the current leftist strategy. Sounds like some reloading equipment is in my future. I can sell rounds to friends as well as keep myself well-supplied.

"That's a quotable one. So according to Liberal logic, if you own a gun then you must be a "wingnut".(his words) No exceptions."

I guess that makes Joe Biden a "wingnut", too.

Whodathunkit?

This afternoon I'm driving over to the Civilian Marksmanship Program facility at Anniston AL to look at their surplus M1 rifles.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_promises_to_stop_americas

They sell Garands in several grades and I want to judge which I should buy. Prices range from $499 to $1400. Also, they have 30 cal military ammunition for 24¢ a round in lots of 400.

Will let you know what I find. The Garands are semi automatics, but they are far from pop guns.

Sorry about the wrong link. Try

http://www.odcmp.com/

Arch

Seems toyboat has never heard of the tiny, crude but effective Liberty Pistol.

Plenty of Liberals own guns including our local anti-gun activist and money-launderer CA President Pro-Tem Senator Don Perata who even has a concealed-carry permit - of course nobody else is allowed to have a CCW permit.
But on a Nationwide level: Waxman is coming. "Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., is challenging Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., for the chairmanship of the powerful House Energy and Commerce Committee." - So, Nancy Pelosi is going to toss the embarrassing four-rent-controlled-apartment John Dingell over, and with Waxman you get the ultimate left wing West Coast uber-liberal.
If Waxman wins expect the Consumer Products Safety Commission to have jurisdiction over firearms.
If Waxman wins, expect a gun show ban - if Waxman wins, expect a gun control orgy.
Barack didn't spend all that time cooking up and paying-for anti-gun judicial reviews at the Joyce Foundation for nuthin'.

Oh yeh, absolutely NO (no-no-no!) correlation between the Down tanking and Obama, but absolute correlation between skyrocketing gun-sales and Obama...

Where the hell were you people when Bush started tapping our phones and ok'd searching our houses without warrants? Ok'd arresting us without charges? Ok'd imprisoning us indefinitely without trials? Ok'd using secret (made up? who could know?)evidence and secret witnesses to convict us. Took away habeas corpus. Where were you when these laws got passed? You do know that because of what you all supported Bush doing that Obama will now be able to do the same, right?

Oh wait- I remember- you were criticizing liberals for being paranoid and wanting to help terrorists. Take a look at the PATRIOT act that most conservatives wholeheartedly supported.

I fully support the second ammendment, but, damn- conservatives sure loved the intrusion on our rights when Bush whispered it into their ear. I support Obama but I don't want him, Bush, or anyone else doing it. Now?...Now?...Now it's time to tool up?

You fools on the right did a great disservice to your country when you goosestepped for Bush and screamed at your fellow citizens because they disagreed. Now most on the right don't even like him. Thanks for helping to erode our freedoms. The difference between the right and liberals? You'd be all too happy to have us punished by Bush. We'd never support Obama punishing you for simply disagreeing.

Ask that clown Hannity, who actually had his job saved by the ACLU before he was on Fox.

Interesting trip to CMP mentioned above.

They have a new facility just north of I-20. Apparently, they get newly rebuilt rifles every tuesday, so wednesday is the day to be there. I'm very glad I went over in person rather than ordering online. One word of caution. I-20 goes to 6 lanes passing Taladega and everyone thinks they are on the speedway. If you're driving 70, you need to be on the shoulder.

They have three basic grades all safe to load and fire - rack, service and correct.

Rack grade rifles ($495) are pretty rough since most went through WWII and/or Korea. Barrels are worn; wood is mismatched and there is some pitting and considerable wear. If you are looking for a museum piece they are authentic. If you look carefully and use a gauge, you can find one that should shoot pretty well.

Service grades ($595) are in much better condition. The barrels have less wear. Most were built after 1952 and saw no major wartime abuse. You can buy one that has all Springfield or all H&R parts but the looks tend to vary quite a bit. If Congress starts making gun-ban noises, I'll drive back and select two service grades. It saves me $20 on FedEx and I won't have to take the luck of the draw.

Correct grade pieces ($950 to $975) are what I really want. They look new. In fact, they are exactly like the ones we used to field strip at Culver every morning. The wood is new birch or walnut and they have leather slings. Little to no wear. It would be safe to order a correct grade online.

Depending on the damage my wife and 6 grandchildren do this Christmas and how the IRS treats me, I will probably buy one correct grade or two service grades in January 2009.

There is no way any size military force UN or otherwise that can take on Millions of the American people and win. Hell how long were we in the tiny country of Nam, look at our present situation in Iraq! Gorilla warfare on home ground is a no brain'er, we win they loose.
There is no equal to fighting in your own territory. Simple! I have no desire to shoot any of my fellow Citizens in uniform or otherwise. Just don't mess with my Family, Home or my Guns! That WILL get you Shot!